$ NL HE MTT: Top pair weak kicker 3way pot right at bubble

[blueskies]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Freeroll

1. Freeroll

Currency

$

(This is at BOL. I don't know how to post the hand history in standard format for this forum as BOL's history is in graphics format.)

Background: 11 players left. Top 10 cash. The pay structure is weird as 4-10 get $25. Then it ratchets up to $75, $100, $150 in the Top 3. I am in 10th. Six players on my table. Five on the other.

I have 5.2 BBs in big blind. Shortest stack is 3 players to my right. He just survived a double up a few hands ago and has 3.8 BBs remaining.

BTN (16BBs) limps. SB (8 BBs) flats. I have 9d4c and check.

Flop is 6d2h9s.

Pot is 3.6 BBs. I lead out with a half pot bet (1.8BB) just hoping to take it. BTN flats, and then SB shoves.

I am not liking my pair of 9s with 4 kicker here. So after thinking I ended up folding. To call I would have to hope that MAYBE SB is spazzing out with a 6 and looking to squeeze out the BTN. But I really doubt it. Plus, I really dunno what the BTN is gonna do. (He called, so that made me feel better about folding.)

That leaves me with only 3.4 BBs remaining and I have to pay up the SB next. Antes are 10% of BB each hand, and the blinds are 3 minutes away from leveling up, so unless the blinds come around to me within that time, I wouldn't even have one more go around left before I blind out.

So, the question is, would you make the call for your tournament life right at the bubble in that situation? Would you check the flop?

Spoiler

BTN had 66. SB had JJ. I ended up weaseling into 10th place. Really weird that SB would just flat the JJ pre. And he F'ed it up more by postflop overplay. Nearly got me in trouble cuz if either of them had raised preflop I wouldn't have been put into that situation.

 

[fundiver199]

As you say, the payout structure is unusual, and it actually matters. The price pool is 500$, and 50% of that is distributed on the bubble (10 x 25). In most MTTs that number is 30-35%. And this mean, there is more extreme ICM on this bubble than in a normal MTT. Its actually closer to the ICM in a 9-man SnG, where 60% is paid out on the bubble (3 x 20%). With that out of the way, lets look at the hand.

Preflop
Dont see much reason to move in with a hand this bad against two limps, and I would also have folded to any raise.

Flop
You do stand to have the best hand most of the time with top pair bad kicker, but you are so short, that you dont really have room to make it a multistreet hand. So you can either jam for protection or check and see, what happens. And because of the ICM and the fact, both players cover you, I do lean towards checking, even though this means, you will usually give up and let someone else win the pot. As played I agree with folding, when BTN call, and SB jam, since I dont think, he is doing that with a hand worse than yours.

Spoiler
You dodged a bullet by bet-folding, since you were basically drawing dead, but check-folding would have been better.

 

[Bird173]

I think I would have overbet jammed on the flop. For better or for worse I believe that is the correct play.

Im not using a solver though. I could be wrong but I don’t think so

Of course when someone is wrong they don’t know they are wrong

 

[fundiver199]

I think I would have overbet jammed on the flop. For better or for worse I believe that is the correct play.

Its really tough to talk about "correct play", when both opponents should never have a limping range with an effective stack of just 8BB. But I would probably also have jammed expecting them to have random garbage far more often than TT+. The guy flopping a set against our top pair is just unlucky. Against him we would also go broke in a raised pot with deeper stacks, if for instance we defended QJ against his 66, and flop came Q86.

 

[Macaroon]

In the circumstances I think I would have gone all-in, hoping that being on the bubble would have caused all the others to think twice before calling, after all they have no idea what you might hold on the BB.

My alternative would have been to check, rather than bettting, which immediately makes the pot look bigger and more attractive. In the circumstances that would have been better!!!

 

[eetenor]

(This is at BOL. I don't know how to post the hand history in standard format for this forum as BOL's history is in graphics format.)

Background: 11 players left. Top 10 cash. The pay structure is weird as 4-10 get $25. Then it ratchets up to $75, $100, $150 in the Top 3. I am in 10th. Six players on my table. Five on the other.

I have 5.2 BBs in big blind. Shortest stack is 3 players to my right. He just survived a double up a few hands ago and has 3.8 BBs remaining.

BTN (16BBs) limps. SB (8 BBs) flats. I have 9d4c and check.

Flop is 6d2h9s.

Pot is 3.6 BBs. I lead out with a half pot bet (1.8BB) just hoping to take it. BTN flats, and then SB shoves.

I am not liking my pair of 9s with 4 kicker here. So after thinking I ended up folding. To call I would have to hope that MAYBE SB is spazzing out with a 6 and looking to squeeze out the BTN. But I really doubt it. Plus, I really dunno what the BTN is gonna do. (He called, so that made me feel better about folding.)

That leaves me with only 3.4 BBs remaining and I have to pay up the SB next. Antes are 10% of BB each hand, and the blinds are 3 minutes away from leveling up, so unless the blinds come around to me within that time, I wouldn't even have one more go around left before I blind out.

So, the question is, would you make the call for your tournament life right at the bubble in that situation? Would you check the flop?

Spoiler

BTN had 66. SB had JJ. I ended up weaseling into 10th place. Really weird that SB would just flat the JJ pre. And he F'ed it up more by postflop overplay. Nearly got me in trouble cuz if either of them had raised preflop I wouldn't have been put into that situation.

We always want to think about the two parts of betting- getting value and denying equity while you did bet half pot it was 36% of your stack and it gave your V pot odds of 3 to 1 to call so they needed only 25% equity vs your top pair to call correctly--- that is a very wide range of hands that call

Secondly in 3 way pots we seldom if ever lead from the BB due to the odds the second player is getting if the first calls and they can call with that wide range

 

[blueskies]

We always want to think about the two parts of betting- getting value and denying equity while you did bet half pot it was 36% of your stack and it gave your V pot odds of 3 to 1 to call so they needed only 25% equity vs your top pair to call correctly--- that is a very wide range of hands that call

Secondly in 3 way pots we seldom if ever lead from the BB due to the odds the second player is getting if the first calls and they can call with that wide range

That's true. My thinking was that I was hoping being on the bubble and being not big stacked themselves, that they would fold if they missed. But seeing they limped in that's probably faulty reasoning.

I did not want a situation where I check and BTN bets. Then I face a decision of folding top pair or jamming with top pair but vulnerable hand. I ended up taking the middle road. But if they had both just called my bet like you said, then I would have been in a really tough spot.

As it turned out, had I checked, btn would have bet and SB would have jammed, which would have made my decision easy and saved me 1.8 BBs.

All in all, I got lucky and just avoided being bubble boy. That would have really sucked.

Funny enough, the very next week in the same freeroll sponsored by the same site, I found myself at the bubble again at 11th after KK lost to a runner runner straight (AIPF vs. QTos). 97% equity on the flop after hitting a K but lost anyway. It took 2/3 of my stack and dropped me from 3rd to 11th. Thank god the actual bubble boy lost with AsKs to Ts5d. (Five diamonds on the board including a 3, or it would have been a chop)

The variance and crazy scenarios that happen in tourneys are wild.

 

[fundiver199]

I did not want a situation where I check and BTN bets. Then I face a decision of folding top pair or jamming with top pair but vulnerable hand. I ended up taking the middle road. But if they had both just called my bet like you said, then I would have been in a really tough spot.

Yes this is exactly the issue. Unless they both fold to your small bet, which is quite unlikely, then you are just delaying the difficult decision to later, and if you fold, you have even less chips left. And this is why, for me the decision needs to be made, when the action gets to you the first time. Either you go with your top pair weak kicker and jam, or you decide to check-fold, unless they allow you a free showdown, or you improve.

 

[duqnuk]

(This is at BOL. I don't know how to post the hand history in standard format for this forum as BOL's history is in graphics format.)

Background: 11 players left. Top 10 cash. The pay structure is weird as 4-10 get $25. Then it ratchets up to $75, $100, $150 in the Top 3. I am in 10th. Six players on my table. Five on the other.

I have 5.2 BBs in big blind. Shortest stack is 3 players to my right. He just survived a double up a few hands ago and has 3.8 BBs remaining.

BTN (16BBs) limps. SB (8 BBs) flats. I have 9d4c and check.

Flop is 6d2h9s.

Pot is 3.6 BBs. I lead out with a half pot bet (1.8BB) just hoping to take it. BTN flats, and then SB shoves.

I am not liking my pair of 9s with 4 kicker here. So after thinking I ended up folding. To call I would have to hope that MAYBE SB is spazzing out with a 6 and looking to squeeze out the BTN. But I really doubt it. Plus, I really dunno what the BTN is gonna do. (He called, so that made me feel better about folding.)

That leaves me with only 3.4 BBs remaining and I have to pay up the SB next. Antes are 10% of BB each hand, and the blinds are 3 minutes away from leveling up, so unless the blinds come around to me within that time, I wouldn't even have one more go around left before I blind out.

So, the question is, would you make the call for your tournament life right at the bubble in that situation? Would you check the flop?

Spoiler

BTN had 66. SB had JJ. I ended up weaseling into 10th place. Really weird that SB would just flat the JJ pre. And he F'ed it up more by postflop overplay. Nearly got me in trouble cuz if either of them had raised preflop I wouldn't have been put into that situation.

Honestly for me it would be really hard to check the flop with top pair (considering you had 3.8bb left). I would probably Jam for protection to at least fight for the pot agaisn't one caller.
The problem with this hand is very clear, it's 94o, so a lot of potential combos you could already be drawing almost dead, any 9 high kicker and even high cards (like jack or higher) would still have decent equity agains't 9's.

As said above, you dodge a bullet and find a nice fold there. Poker it's all about patience and finding the right time to make a move.

Well done!

 

[Poker Orifice]

I think for me (on flop) shove > check
It's the bubble, there's a super short stack on the table who has already folded, another very short one in BB and the Button Limps?

 

[fundiver199]

I think for me (on flop) shove > check

Yeah in real time I probably jam as well. Especially if Heros stack was 5,2BB before posting a blind, because then he only has 4,2BB left now, and the pot is 3,6BB, so only an SPR of a little over 1. This time SB had completed with JJ, but thats definitely an outlier. Most of the time they both have weak hands, and if BTN can have 66, which flopped a set, he can also have 77-88 or 33-55, which did not. Or he could have a hand like A6. And given, how short Hero is, those hands might even give him action, when he jam. So sometimes he actually get it in good, although this would not have been one of those times.