$320 NL HE MTT: GG Masters bounty, two curious spots from BB

[Rajten]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

320

Game Options

1. Bounty

Currency

$

GG MASTER 320 BOUNTY
HAND 1

brazil UTG 3 - 23% vpip PFR 8% raise 2,3bb 26hands 716k winning

Bu 43% vpip 0% 3 bet- calls

hero on bb Ah8d calls

LVL 3 UTG 125BB, UTG 2 VILLAIN 122BB, UTG 3 212 BB, HJ 110BB, CO 117BB, BU 190BB, SB 131BB, HERO BB 119BB


flop 8h9d5c (8,4bb)

utg bets 2,8 bb, bu, calls hero??? I thinking about raising, I am probably good, but there are many bad turn cards, but if I raise and got call, it is hard to play oop

Turn 2c (16,7bb)

UTG bets 20bb, BU folds, hero???


HAND 2


lvl7 UTG 51,6bb, UTG2 7bb, UTG 3 160BB, HJ 123BB, CO 45BB, BU 125BB, SB 52BB, HERO 79BB

BU raises 1,6bb (125bb stack) it is big stack 29%vpip 16% pfr 17% At to steal, 8% 3 bet 32 hans, 9bilions winnings

hero 79bb stack QdTs calls

Flop KcJd8h (8,1 bb)

BB checks, villain bets 1,6bb, hero?? I wonder what is better here call or raise.


Turn 6h (9,8bb)

hero checks, villain bets 8,5bb, hero???

 

[300HPGOD]

Hand 1: A little no mans land imo as Ax that has a mid kicker is bad since you dont have wheel possibilities and can be dominated by many larger Ax. It is also, though, a decent hand getting a good price from the BB to call when deep. Its a proceed with caution hand but I would call as you do here unless you think villains would fold to a 3 bet often. If so you can steal some pots here but given they will be in position and deep I would think they would call a 3 bet often so I think calling here is fine.

Flop: you get 2nd pair which is nothing to write home about but its something. You face a 1/3rd bet from villain on a coordinated board. I think theyre overpairs here would bet a bet more for "protection" so I slightly discount that. Its also a 3 way hand here so you just really have a bluff catcher at this point so I would just call as you do to a small bet.

Turn: Pretty much a blank and you face an overbet. Unless we know something about villain here I would just fold. Not really sure what this means with knowing nothing about villain so I would put a note on them and see how they play future hands. If you were to call here then I think you have to call a lot of rivers and you will face another big bet often on the river. Much better to just fold here and see how villain plays in future spots similar to this.

Hand 2: Not sure how button raises to 1.6BBs so I will treat it as a min open. Perfectly fine to call with Q10 here and take a flop. You can throw in some 3 bets here too with hands like this and hands that are weaker as well that is going against a button opener.

Flop: You flop a straight draw and are facing a very small bet. Villain could have a small piece here like an 8 or a J. I personally dont like raising here as unless we think it will create folds (dont know villain here so cant say how much they would fold) then we are stoking the fire with Q high when we could see a cheap turn. I like just calling here and seeing the turn.

Turn: Its a relative blank and again villain bets big on turn (same as hand 1). if it were the same villain here as in hand one than I think I would entertain calling more but would also rather have a pair to bluff catch. You are drawing against the odds here so I would fold. If it was same villain as hand 1 then we can see a pattern here that we can attack in the future but if not, then we just fold without much thought and at least we got to see a cheap turn.

 

[fundiver199]

Hand 1 A8o

Preflop
From a theoretical standpoint we are supposed to defend less, when there are field callers. So this is actually closer, than most people probably think. The issue with this hand is, that you will most commonly flop a pair, and when you do, its often not the best pair. Either someone else have you outkicked, if you hit an ace, or if you hit an 8, its often second or third pair, especially if you get to the turn and river. So I actually dont think, you are giving up much if any EV by folding, but I would also stick in the call, when his raise is this small. Against a larger open to say 3BB, I would fold though.

Flop
The board strongly favour your range and also BTNs range, so the preflop raiser should actually not be C-betting light here, if he know, what he is doing. And in top of that BTN has already called. Moreover its a very connected board, where someone (most likely BTN) could already have a straight, and there are many future cards, that are bad for you, since they either bring another overcard to your second pair, or they put a 1-liner to a straight.

So once again I dont think, you would be leaving much if any EV on the table by just folding, even though you flopped second pair. But given the small sizing I would also stick in a call and see a turn. But I am certainly not in the mindset, that I think, you probably have the best hand here. Its quite likely, the preflop raiser could have an overpair or a set, and BTN can also have you beat or have a lot of equity with a draw. So I am definitely not raising for protection, and its more of a pot-odds based sigh call than anything else.

Turn
Now you are facing an overbet on a blank, and this actually makes your decision much easier. You have many better hands to continue with, including those that has some sort of draw.

Hand 2 QTo

Preflop
This time you are closing the action against just a BTN open, and against this sizing you have to defend anything except complete junk. QTo is certainly not complete junk, so this is an easy call. Or you could throw in a light 3-bet from time to time.

Flop
When he C-bet this small (20% pot), you are supposed to check-raise more often, including a decent amount of check-raises for protection. You need to balance that out with bluffs, and this hand is a decent candidate for that. You have quite moderate current showdown value but 8 outs to the nuts, so you can even call a 3-bet, unless its to large. So my preference here is to check-raise, but calling certainly beats folding. I would assume, a solver might do some of both, so its not like, calling here is a mistake.

Turn
Pretty brick card except, that it brings in a backdoor flushdraw, and now he size up to almost full pot. This is much more polarizing that his flop bet, and with only one card to come, you can not call a 3-bet. For that reason I would not check-raise. If you call, you are not getting the right direct odds, so it would be an implied odds type call. And there are things going both against and for you here.

Two of your outs will now bring in a potential flush, which is bad, but 6 are still to the nuts, which is good. Its also good, that an offsuit A might improve him to a very strong but second best hand, if he has for instance AA or AK. But its bad to be out of position, because it makes it more difficult to get paid. Its also bad, that you dont have additional equity from overcards. So all in all I think, its another one of those, where folding or calling are pretty close in EV.

 

[Matt_Burns88]

Hand 1: Personally I would be folding preflop with A8o in this situation. Just against the open, I would call, but BTN coming along as well, it becomes really hard to realise our equity.
As played, I think calling flop is perfectly fine. Folding is not good when facing a small bet with 2nd pair top kicker. Raising is horrendous especially 3 handed, because UTG's c-betting range is a lot stronger than if it was just a HU pot, because he is OOP against BTN as well. Both have a lot of 9xs and all the sets and BTN can have TT, JJ and QQ at least half the time, as well as a whole bunch of draws, so it's likely you're going to looked up by at least one of them and find yourself playing a bloated pot OOP.
The turn feels a lot like UTG trying to get max value from 99 or 88, or maybe a big draw like JcTc. Like 300 said, with the very little information we have on UTG, I would fold and make a note about the overbet and if you see him do something similar in the future take note of what hand they had.


Hand 2: The raise size here is quite important. If it's a min-raise then I would be mixing calling and raised about 50/50. If it's 2.6x, I would 100% call.
Flop I like a X/R here against a BTN c-bet, especially when their bet is so small. Villain is supposed to c-bet this board almost every time. You have an open ender to the nuts and villain still has a very wide range, so taking down the pot now with Q high is a good result, while getting called with a strong draw is not bad.
As played, we find ourselves in a slightly awkward spot. This isn't a card we get to lead on, so checking is correct, but we then face an 87% pot bet...normally I at lower stakes, I would say this makes an unknown villain pretty value heavy, but in a $320, I think we have to give the average opponent more credit for more bluffs, which would probably lead me to call here, but it's close. I certainly wouldn't criticize a fold.

 

[300HPGOD]

Hand 2 QTo

So all in all I think, its another one of those, where folding or calling are pretty close in EV.

Hand 2: but in a $320, I think we have to give the average opponent more credit for more bluffs, which would probably lead me to call here, but it's close. I certainly wouldn't criticize a fold.

Please don't take this post as I am saying you are wrong but I am questioning it for clarification because I feel like I am missing something/Im not good enough. It could be too that I never play anything close to a $320 online buy in but have some questions for both of you as you both said calling is at least okay. So my main question is why do you both think calling is fine here?

First, we are way against the odds calling here to try to get a straight and if we did we are out of position. We are dependent on villain continuing to fire or call our lead, should we lead, if we hit. Not sure how many one pair hands will call if we lead especially for any real sized bet. Maybe we can rely on them to continuing betting but after a call of the turn if we were to make it, I think we will see a lot of check backs on river.

Second, I know villain shouldnt be bluffing with Ax here but they could be if they are targeting 8x and Jx hands which we could have as villains range is wide here and so is ours with villain and hero probably knowing both of those perceived ranges so they could attack our potential small one pair hands. They would have to think we would fold those hands but wouldnt we often especially facing a triple barrel with big bet sizings on turn and river (if thats whats coming). This means that we are calling here and we dont even beat some of villains bluffs and that includes sometimes that they may turn 8x into a bluff (although thats less likely imo).

Third, what are we doing on the river when we miss (which will be more times than not)? Are we ever bluff leading the river? If we do hit, one of those cards is an ace which if villain does not have will deter them from calling so I feel like we are not always getting called when we hit and lead but if the river was a blank it would not have the "ace effect" and therefore would not get folds from the villain so I personally think our bluffing opportunities on the river are thin at best. Just wondering after we make this call on turn what our plan is for river?

So maybe I am jaded cause I normally play micros and wanted to ask both of you your thoughts on this hand and why you think they way you do with respect to calling turn. Im sure I am missing something, thanks in advance for the explanations from both of you and also as always, thanks in particular to Fundiver as your posts have really helped my game.

 

[Rajten]

Thank you all for your responses, very valuable comments and advises. First hand I folded on turn, because, barreling against two opponents, especially with overbet looks very strong for me. What should I do if it was heads up, I think it is a lot closer. In second hand I also folded, because I felt a little tilted, so I chosen to play safe.

 

[fundiver199]

Please don't take this post as I am saying you are wrong but I am questioning it for clarification because I feel like I am missing something/Im not good enough. It could be too that I never play anything close to a $320 online buy in but have some questions for both of you as you both said calling is at least okay. So my main question is why do you both think calling is fine here?

First, we are way against the odds calling here to try to get a straight and if we did we are out of position. We are dependent on villain continuing to fire or call our lead, should we lead, if we hit. Not sure how many one pair hands will call if we lead especially for any real sized bet. Maybe we can rely on them to continuing betting but after a call of the turn if we were to make it, I think we will see a lot of check backs on river.

Second, I know villain shouldnt be bluffing with Ax here but they could be if they are targeting 8x and Jx hands which we could have as villains range is wide here and so is ours with villain and hero probably knowing both of those perceived ranges so they could attack our potential small one pair hands. They would have to think we would fold those hands but wouldnt we often especially facing a triple barrel with big bet sizings on turn and river (if thats whats coming). This means that we are calling here and we dont even beat some of villains bluffs and that includes sometimes that they may turn 8x into a bluff (although thats less likely imo).

Third, what are we doing on the river when we miss (which will be more times than not)? Are we ever bluff leading the river? If we do hit, one of those cards is an ace which if villain does not have will deter them from calling so I feel like we are not always getting called when we hit and lead but if the river was a blank it would not have the "ace effect" and therefore would not get folds from the villain so I personally think our bluffing opportunities on the river are thin at best. Just wondering after we make this call on turn what our plan is for river?

So maybe I am jaded cause I normally play micros and wanted to ask both of you your thoughts on this hand and why you think they way you do with respect to calling turn. Im sure I am missing something, thanks in advance for the explanations from both of you and also as always, thanks in particular to Fundiver as your posts have really helped my game.

First of all my play in real time would most likely also be to fold, as OP did as well. I just dont think, its a real mistake to call either, because of the way the board is structured and the fact, we have a fair amount of chips behind. Which also mean we dont really need to worry about ICM. If I call here, I am checking any river card, and if I miss, I just give up. I guess, we could potentially try to bluff a heart, but we dont have a heart ourselfes, so we dont have the relevant blocker. And I also dont think, donk bets get a ton of respect, when a BDFD comes in.

So we are in fact relying on the Villain to do our betting for us, when we hit. But I do think, an A or 9 gets bet a decent amount of the time. The A is a great card for him, since he can have hands like AA or AK, that improved on it. Or maybe some other AX, that rivered top pair. And a 9 is a relative blank, unless it brings in the BDFD. But even then I think, sets or two pair or even AA will bet again. And then of course if we have the nuts, we check-raise, and if a flush is possible, we just call.

 

[Matt_Burns88]

As Fundiver said, effective stacks are quite deep, so implied odds are significant here, because when we get there on the river, we get to X/jam our non-flush completing straights and just call when the BDFD does come in (note if either of our cards was a h, we're jamming regardless of whether the flush comes in or not), because villain has very few flushes except some Jxh and maybe some Kxh. Villains turn bet sizing is polarising his range as well so there are also times when the river gets checked down and we win at showdown when they just give up with their junk.

Note, I do not play $320, I play micro and low stakes hence, I would fold the vast majority of the time because villains are not bluffing as much at the lower stakes.

I ran this through GTO Wizard as close to the bet sizes as I could at it says we should only be folding QTo 0.2% of the time against this raise size:

 

[feisas7991]

A8 you can do whatever you want on the flop i think.

nah i dont understand your hand history at all.
2nd hand button raise 2.6bb and somehow pot on the flop is 8bb???
nah no comments i dont understand hand history at all, bring proper replay and ill comment.
is it 6+ short deck 2nd hand??
what means in 9 billion in winnings? its pesos currency or what?
first hand was extremely confusing too, not sure if i understand it correctly anymore too

 

[fundiver199]

I ran this through GTO Wizard as close to the bet sizes as I could at it says we should only be folding QTo 0.2% of the time against this raise size:

Definitely interesting, that this is essentially never a fold in GTO. Seems like most of us are likely overfolding the turn quite a bit. Which is probably ok in micro and low stakes games, since the population likely dont bluff enough on the late streets. Should be noted also, that when a solver call a hand like this on the turn, its almost certainly using it as a bluff sometimes on the river. Maybe some crafty check-raise all-in some percentage of the time.

 

[eetenor]

GG MASTER 320 BOUNTY
HAND 1

Brazil UTG 3 - 23% vpip PFR 8% raise 2,3bb 26hands 716k winning

Bu 43% vpip 0% 3 bet- calls

hero on bb Ah8d calls

LVL 3 UTG 125BB, UTG 2 VILLAIN 122BB, UTG 3 212 BB, HJ 110BB, CO 117BB, BU 190BB, SB 131BB, HERO BB 119BB


flop 8h9d5c (8,4bb)

utg bets 2,8 bb, bu, calls hero??? I thinking about raising, I am probably good, but there are many bad turn cards, but if I raise and got call, it is hard to play oop

Turn 2c (16,7bb)

UTG bets 20bb, BU folds, hero???


HAND 2


lvl7 UTG 51,6bb, UTG2 7bb, UTG 3 160BB, HJ 123BB, CO 45BB, BU 125BB, SB 52BB, HERO 79BB

BU raises 1,6bb (125bb stack) it is big stack 29%vpip 16% pfr 17% At to steal, 8% 3 bet 32 hans, 9bilions winnings

hero 79bb stack QdTs calls

Flop KcJd8h (8,1 bb)

BB checks, villain bets 1,6bb, hero?? I wonder what is better here call or raise.


Turn 6h (9,8bb)

hero checks, villain bets 8,5bb, hero???

Hand 1 is a very weak hand vs these stack sizes and V hud stats- when we are deep we do not want to be making hands that are dominated whenever our V want to play for a large pot especially OOP. We can easy fold this pre.

Flop we can call due to pot odds but thinking we are best here is not what I would be thinking- we could be but UTG has a much more nutted range than we do with A8

Hand 2

call turn the turn bet is polarized but we can beat their current best hand when we make the straight and we win sometimes when we hit a Q and we have implied odds and they check their bluffs on river