$2,16$ NL HE MTT: What would you have done differently ?

[G0930]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

2,16$

Game Options

1. Bounty
2. Turbo

Currency

$

Think this is my first strategy post^^

This hand got me thinking a lot...
I know it would have been a guaranteed pot if I would have pushed allin on the flop...villain would never have paid me off.

Him holding 88 was probably my death sentence since it was the perfect blocker for the straight draw on the board which was most definetly the crucial reason he called my bluff.
I'm certain of that ..

Thoughts?

GGPoker undefined

PokerCraft MerlinMacavity Hand History

gg.gl

 

[Andyreas]

Preflop:
I think your 3-bet was too small. You're in position, so a standard size would be 3x. You went for less than 2x his bet, which will never make him fold.

It even encouraged BB to go along and usually we try to isolate with a 3-bet.

Flop:
While you missed, you still have the nut-flush draw, so a mandatory call and I also see no reason to raise since the pot is already quite big.

Turn:
Unfortunately no spade and also no Ace or Queen. The 9c was pretty much a blank since a regular 3-bet range does not include too many 9x hands.
Nevertheless, I think your bet is fine since you get some food equity but I also wouldn't mind to Check-Back.

River:
Still no hit. While the K definitely serves as a scare card and you can definitely try to bluff now. GTO hints towards a full pot bluff but I often only go for half pot to save some chips if called.

Now you decide to jam with over SPR or 2. While this should get you the max fold equity, it's still a PKO, so people tend to bluff catch more.

As you said, he had 8x8s, which served as flush blocker and straight blocker.

But still not the most clever move to risk all his stack on that board with two overs for a min-bounty.


So while I don't think you made huge mistakes, I'd take away to 3-bet bigger pre and the overbet on river was also a little over the top (imo). Also consider checking back on turn for pot control.

Those are my five cents. 🤓

 

[G0930]

Preflop:
I think your 3-bet was too small. You're in position, so a standard size would be 3x. You went for less than 2x his bet, which will never make him fold.

It even encouraged BB to go along and usually we try to isolate with a 3-bet.

Flop:
While you missed, you still have the nut-flush draw, so a mandatory call and I also see no reason to raise since the pot is already quite big.

Turn:
Unfortunately no spade and also no Ace or Queen. The 9c was pretty much a blank since a regular 3-bet range does not include too many 9x hands.
Nevertheless, I think your bet is fine since you get some food equity but I also wouldn't mind to Check-Back.

River:
Still no hit. While the K definitely serves as a scare card and you can definitely try to bluff now. GTO hints towards a full pot bluff but I often only go for half pot to save some chips if called.

Now you decide to jam with over SPR or 2. While this should get you the max fold equity, it's still a PKO, so people tend to bluff catch more.

As you said, he had 8x8s, which served as flush blocker and straight blocker.

But still not the most clever move to risk all his stack on that board with two overs for a min-bounty.


So while I don't think you made huge mistakes, I'd take away to 3-bet bigger pre and the overbet on river was also a little over the top (imo). Also consider checking back on turn for pot control.

Those are my five cents. 🤓

Great analysis thank you

 

[G0930]

Preflop:
I think your 3-bet was too small. You're in position, so a standard size would be 3x. You went for less than 2x his bet, which will never make him fold.

It even encouraged BB to go along and usually we try to isolate with a 3-bet.

One thing to add^^
Although it's true, the Bet would have never made him fold but that wasn't my intention, I wanted the Korean in the pot, especially after seeing the flop...hence why I probably just called His 5bb Bet ...
Agreed that was my 1st mistake...should have made a 14 bb re raise to make him believe I already got it.

Shouldn't have hoped for another spade but happy about a guaranteed pot..If I had played it differently

 

[G0930]

Think this guy's call was between genius and madness.
Well its a fine line for sure 🤪

 

[Goggelheimer]

Think this is my first strategy post^^

This hand got me thinking a lot...
I know it would have been a guaranteed pot if I would have pushed allin on the flop...villain would never have paid me off.

Him holding 88 was probably my death sentence since it was the perfect blocker for the straight draw on the board which was most definetly the crucial reason he called my bluff.
I'm certain of that ..

Thoughts?

GGPoker undefined

PokerCraft MerlinMacavity Hand History

gg.gl

Well, you have the position advantage, but what do you think what his range is on this monotone flop from his MP open.

KQs(spades), any overpair with a spade any suited spades hand like 89, T9, JT, spades, any Ax with a spade.

Perhaps work out how many hands that are with equilab, or flopzilla.

BB, MP and show weakness on the turn, but if you want to bluff out weaker pairs you should try to bet 1/3 pot on the turn (and you turned your hand into a bluff there), normal AK players bet the turn.
Options are bet bigger than 1/2 pot looks more like value, or bet 1/3 looks more like value keeping MP in the hand.

Your All in on the river making your hand to a bluff was not the best move, do you really think you can bluff out sets flushes or overpairs even AK.
The move looks a lot like you want to bluff him out.

But thats my not very professional view.

 

[G0930]

Well, you have the position advantage, but what do you think what his range is on this monotone flop from his MP open.

KQs(spades), any overpair with a spade any suited spades hand like 89, T9, JT, spades, any Ax with a spade.

I put him preflop on Ax. played quite loose the whole time..

Perhaps work out how many hands that are with equilab, or flopzilla.

BB, MP and show weakness on the turn, but if you want to bluff out weaker pairs you should try to bet 1/3 pot on the turn (and you turned your hand into a bluff there), normal AK players bet the turn.
Options are bet bigger than 1/2 pot looks more like value, or bet 1/3 looks more like value keeping MP in the hand.

Yes I think I made two crucial mistakes, one on the flop by not reraising his 5BB bet , the turn only gave him more additional outs. and no chance for me, only representing the nuts flush could have worked.

So I think I stick to my statement above. between genius and madness this guy

Your All in on the river making your hand to a bluff was not the best move, do you really think you can bluff out sets flushes or overpairs even AK.
The move looks a lot like you want to bluff him out.

But thats my not very professional view.

but I think you are correct here.( I think my chances of getting an opinion here of an actual pro are slim xD )
I should have gone for 2/3 of the pot... would have been a way more believable value bet.

 

[Goggelheimer]

I put him preflop on Ax. played quite loose the whole time..

Quite loose means that the made hand flush is absolutely in his range, so Ax is way too small as range you did put him on.
He seems to have more value hands than you.

 

[G0930]

quite loose means that the made hand flush is absoltely in his range.

fair point. I was sensing he was ahead on the flop.. but not by much

 

[Goggelheimer]

but I think you are correct here.( I think my chances of getting an opinion here of an actual pro are slim xD )

In the RYE Discord there could be a possible pro answer.

 

[G0930]

In the RYE Discord there could be a possible pro answer.

ty for the tip

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I will often just call with AQ in this situation, because it kind of sucks to get 4-bet. You can 3-bet also from time to time, but as Andyreas say, you sizing is way to small. The purpose of a 3-bet is not just to massage the pot larger. You want to put him to a tough decision with his more marginal hands rather than price him in to continue with his entire range and 4-bet his strongest hands.

Flop
Raising and calling are both fine. In position I lean more towards calling, as you did.

Turn
I might check back here and take a free card, because I dont think, you have a ton of fold equity. But betting is ok as well and builds up the pot for the nuts, when you hit it.

River
I kind of want to be a little results oriented here and say, that when he call an overbet jam with 88, then this is not a player, you want to try and bluff on the river. Also overbets are often perceived as bluffy, and putting your bounty in play improves his pot odds. So a jam here would have been a great line to take for value, but when you are bluffing, you might want to go to something like 60% pot instead. This might have gotten the same amount of folds or even more folds, and of course saved you a lot of chips when called. Its also ok to check back, since you will sometimes have the best hand, if he was chasing after a worse flush with a hand like QJ with one spade. Against fishy opponents we often do not want to bluff with the nut nothing, when they can have busted draws.

 

[makisaa]

Hunting for that flush! That spade didn't show up! I think you didn't need to go all in after that non spade river. In your position I would play almost like you did but I would hold at the river! To save the game!

 

[eetenor]

Think this is my first strategy post^^

This hand got me thinking a lot...
I know it would have been a guaranteed pot if I would have pushed allin on the flop...villain would never have paid me off.

Him holding 88 was probably my death sentence since it was the perfect blocker for the straight draw on the board which was most definetly the crucial reason he called my bluff.
I'm certain of that ..

Thoughts?

GGPoker undefined

PokerCraft MerlinMacavity Hand History

gg.gl

So our foundation is the most important part of our strategy----gto wizard free version has up to 100bb charts and actions preflop---I highly recommend you get it- look at your hands and ask yourself why would I deviate from what it suggests to do?
The more you do this the stronger your play would become both gto and exploit.

The wiz has us flat or raise preflop at 100bb when we raise it is to 8bb- you are even deeper which means we would never raise less than 8bb as it makes it easier for our V to call preflop and over realize equity vs AQoff when deep.

As played our bluffs want to tell a consistent story so take the time to think about your story here- does it make sense from preflop to river?

 

[SpanRmonka]

Similar responses to above. 3 bet to small, and river bluff way too big.

You say the guy is loose.....that makes me try to bluff him even less, or potentially never EVER. As you conclude, he is between genius and madness, you almost knew therefore, before the hand that he could have the ability/craziness to call this kind of bet or make what most f us would consider a crazy call.
In the micros I try to identify fellow tighter players and try to only bluff them, not the crazy random players who can raise with all kinds of hands and therefore show up with all kinds of hands on the river.

Finally, this was touched upon, but I think its really really important. You can't in my opinion, put someone on Ax only, in almost any hand.....its naive, but also inaccurate. This is something I used to do, but I've got better at thinking more in ranges these days.....still loads of improvement could be made.of course.

The key to my point though, is even just accepting that they do have a range of hands that could call can make you make way better river decisions, regardelss of whether you have accurately narrowed the range down or not, or at least avoid massive mistakes like this big overbet shove. What I am deducing, correct me if I am wrong is that you put him on Ax as that is a hand that would fold to your shove, therefore justifying your shove.....and this is why it is, for me, a massive mistake.

I def used to do this frequently too, and still do sometimes, but I know it and am trying to remove it from my game.

I'll end with a light comment. I do enjoy when foreign languages throw up word associations for me. In this hand I learned that in German/Austrian, forgive me I'm English, Check, is Checken, which immediately made me think of Chicken, which is used to suggest someone doesn't have the guts to do something.....in this case Bet, so too Chicken/Checken to bet! therefore checken.
Sorry to hi jack a serious hand analysis with babble!

 

[G0930]

Similar responses to above. 3 bet to small, and river bluff way too big.

You say the guy is loose.....that makes me try to bluff him even less, or potentially never EVER. As you conclude, he is between genius and madness, you almost knew therefore, before the hand that he could have the ability/craziness to call this kind of bet or make what most f us would consider a crazy call.
In the micros I try to identify fellow tighter players and try to only bluff them, not the crazy random players who can raise with all kinds of hands and therefore show up with all kinds of hands on the river.

Finally, this was touched upon, but I think its really really important. You can't in my opinion, put someone on Ax only, in almost any hand.....its naive, but also inaccurate. This is something I used to do, but I've got better at thinking more in ranges these days.....still loads of improvement could be made.of course.

The key to my point though, is even just accepting that they do have a range of hands that could call can make you make way better river decisions, regardelss of whether you have accurately narrowed the range down or not, or at least avoid massive mistakes like this big overbet shove. What I am deducing, correct me if I am wrong is that you put him on Ax as that is a hand that would fold to your shove, therefore justifying your shove.....and this is why it is, for me, a massive mistake.

I def used to do this frequently too, and still do sometimes, but I know it and am trying to remove it from my game.

Ty for the feedback. Appreciate it. Good input for improvement.

I'll end with a light comment. I do enjoy when foreign languages throw up word associations for me. In this hand I learned that in German/Austrian, forgive me I'm English, Check, is Checken, which immediately made me think of Chicken, which is used to suggest someone doesn't have the guts to do something.....in this case Bet, so too Chicken/Checken to bet! therefore checken.
Sorry to hi jack a serious hand analysis with babble!

Lol . Chicken btw is Hendl in Austrian german and "Hünchen" in German german xD

 

[G0930]

Hunting for that flush! That spade didn't show up! I think you didn't need to go all in after that non spade river. In your position I would play almost like you did but I would hold at the river! To save the game!

I was too determined to get that pot no matter what 😅 which was clear to me on the river it would only work with a bluff .
But I should have thought about it longer and also not bluff allin but a more thought through strong bluffraise

 

[puzzlefish]

But I should have thought about it longer and also not bluff allin but a more thought through strong bluffraise

Do you find that this works at these stakes? I have monkeys calling me down no matter what at $5.5

 

[fundiver199]

Him holding 88 was probably my death sentence since it was the perfect blocker for the straight draw on the board which was most definetly the crucial reason he called my bluff. I'm certain of that ..

He was not thinking on that level, and blocking a straight makes no difference, when you are polarizing your range to a strong flush or nothing. His thinking was more likely something like this:

"That guy is a bully betting over the size of the pot, but he is not going to bluff me. I am going to call him down with my pair of 8`s and show him, who is boss".

Blackrain79 call it the "table sheriff" mentality, and its something, you see a lot in the micros, because many people play for fun and dont truly care about the money at stake. Maybe they start to care, as the final table gets near, and a little bit on the bubble. But certainly not early in the game, when its only $2,16 to reenter or play the next one. In top of that it was a PKO, and people get a kick out of winning bounties.

 

[G0930]

Do you find that this works at these stakes? I have monkeys calling me down no matter what at $5.5

It depends on what stage of the game.
I won't do it close to the bubble for example.
But yes , bluffing generally does help me in any game.
Timing was off in this case.. and too strong of a bet for a Bluff

 

[G0930]

He was not thinking on that level, and blocking a straight makes no difference, when you are polarizing your range to a strong flush or nothing. His thinking was more likely something like this:

"That guy is a bully betting over the size of the pot, but he is not going to bluff me. I am going to call him down with my pair of 8`s and show him, who is boss".

Blackrain79 call it the "table sheriff" mentality, and its something, you see a lot in the micros, because many people play for fun and dont truly care about the money at stake. Maybe they start to care, as the final table gets near, and a little bit on the bubble. But certainly not early in the game, when its only $2,16 to reenter or play the next one. In top of that it was a PKO, and people get a kick out of winning bounties.

Yes you're probably right 👍🏼

 

[fundiver199]

In my experience monotone flops are especially bad for tripple barrel bluffing fishy opponents. Its easy to get into the mindset, that "LOL I have the nut blocker, so I should bluff". But fishy opponents tend to not believe us on monotone boards, or at least that is my experience from playing micro and low stakes games for several years.

I particularly remember a hand from a 10NL cash game, I played years ago. Fish limps, I isolate to 4,5BB on CO or BTN, BB call, limper call. 3-ways to a monotone Q high flop. I flopped A high with the nut flushdraw. Dont remember the suit or my kicker, but lets say it was all spades, and I had AsJh. I made a C-bet, BB folds, limper calls. Turn is a brick. I fire another barrel, limper calls again.

River was an offsuit 8, so I was left with AJ high. Around a pot sized bet left, and I jammed. Limper snap called me with K8 with 8 of spades, so he was chasing after a bad draw and kind of accidentally rivered a weak pair. Lets say third pair. And he did not even think about it before putting in his last 6$ / 60BB.

I kind of laughed about this and understood, that my mental picture of the hand was completely wrong. I thought, I was bluffing on the flop and turn, but actually I was betting for value with my AJ high and also building the pot for the nuts. So the flop and turn bets were ok but not for the reason, I made them.

The river bet however was terrible, because at that point this opponent was folding any hand worse than my AJ high and calling with anything better. I should just have checked back and lost a much smaller pot to his rivered third pair. But won when he had a hand like K9 with 9 of spades, which also missed its draw.

 

[Pokerpoet2]

Preflop:
I think your 3-bet was too small. You're in position, so a standard size would be 3x. You went for less than 2x his bet, which will never make him fold.

It even encouraged BB to go along and usually we try to isolate with a 3-bet.

Flop:
While you missed, you still have the nut-flush draw, so a mandatory call and I also see no reason to raise since the pot is already quite big.

Turn:
Unfortunately no spade and also no Ace or Queen. The 9c was pretty much a blank since a regular 3-bet range does not include too many 9x hands.
Nevertheless, I think your bet is fine since you get some food equity but I also wouldn't mind to Check-Back.

River:
Still no hit. While the K definitely serves as a scare card and you can definitely try to bluff now. GTO hints towards a full pot bluff but I often only go for half pot to save some chips if called.

Now you decide to jam with over SPR or 2. While this should get you the max fold equity, it's still a PKO, so people tend to bluff catch more.

As you said, he had 8x8s, which served as flush blocker and straight blocker.

But still not the most clever move to risk all his stack on that board with two overs for a min-bounty.


So while I don't think you made huge mistakes, I'd take away to 3-bet bigger pre and the overbet on river was also a little over the top (imo). Also consider checking back on turn for pot control.

Those are my five cents. 🤓

I would have to agree with you, If you are going to make a raise before the flop, you need it to be convincing, but saying that A/Q off suit is a dangerous hand to play, So I would rather Limp than raise. Calling a bet after the flop is Mandatory as you were holding the Nut Flush Draw, but to push all-in on the River seemed a little suspicious, which is probably why the Villain called.
If you had the Flush You would probably size your bet accordingly and try to make it look like you were trying to get value, maybe a pot sized bet would have done the job, but you certainly wouldn't have busted out.
Kudos to the Villain though, I certainly would not have called in his position with a pocket pair and two over cards out there, but he obviously smelled something fishy and called correctly, As for pushing All-in before the flop, It would be bottom of my calling range but not unheard of.
In one game I remember I had limped from UTG with Pocket 8s and facing an All-in Raise from the Player UTG+1 and having two callers the pot became very tempting and my decision to call was because UTG+1 was the 1st to go all-in and he would probably be pushing with an Ace hand and the 2 callers were obviously holding something similar, So I decided to come along and spiked an 8 on the flop, Game over and I took all 3 of them out.