Bodog HH

[fletchdad]

Any way to save them? I want to review hands but they are not being saved. I read once a while ago about a tool that does it, but cant remember what it was called, or if it even works under the new set up at bodog, now that trackers are no longer allowed.

On a side note, how many bodog players multitable, and how many? I find with more than 3-4 w/o a tracker, I get pretty lost.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Last time I played at Bodog (1.5 months ago) PT3 worked fine without any 3rd party tools.

I believe HEM requires IdleMiner (~$50). I have no idea what works currently though.

 

[absoluthamm]

Yea, WV is right, for HEM you need IdleMiner because HEM actually listened to Bodog when they said that they didn't want software to mine HH's and PT3 didn't

As far as multi-tabling... Bodog really isn't the site for it. Unless they've changed it recently, the most tables you can play at a time is only 4, so it's really crap compared to other sites that allow you to multi-table a more respectable number.

 

[fletchdad]

aha. I have HEM so thats why. Hmmm, bummer. idleminer 50$? na, if I cant do more than 4 I am ok w/o tracker anyway. uhhh kinda......

Thanks guys!

Still a bummer that I cant save my own games for my own review........

Oh bodogbecky...where art thou?????

 

[dmorris68]

I wouldn't pay $50 for Idleminer's Bodog Grabber now anyway. When PTR bought Idleminer, they pretty much abandoned the software. When Bodog went on their anti-HUD/tracker crusade awhile ago, they broke Idleminer's grabber and it was months before it was barely made to work again, and I don't think it works again now or doesn't for everyone. There are tons of disgruntled and unhappy Idleminer customers on 2+2's software forum that complain about it not working.

HEM has implied recently that they're reconsidering their stance on Bodog. They had nearly completed their own handgrabber but voluntarily ceased development/release upon Bodog's request. I think they wanted to maintain good relationships with all the card rooms (for instance, as they've done with Cake who agreed to let them continue working on their site as long as they disabled certain functionality). But PT3 seized upon the competitive opportunity by blowing off Bodog and continuing to grab hands. In light of Idleminer's virtual abandonment by PTR, and a number of HEM customers complaining, HEM may well be reversing their decision before long.

I don't play much on Bodog but did luck out that I have a Hold'em Indicator license from years ago -- it was the first poker "software" I ever owned and got it free for a cardroom signup (Sportsbook I think, back when they were Cake). It's a far cry from a full tracker, but it does support Bodog and at least maintains session stats on your opponents, plus now it has a rudimentary HUD (which I haven't tried to use, I just watch the stats).

 

[PokerTracker]

PokerTracker is a very responsible company within the poker community, we always operate within the TOS of the various poker sites and networks we support. The Terms of Service for Bodog allows personal data collection of your own hands on tables that you are playing at, in turn PokerTracker continues to support Bodog. Bodog's TOS does not permit datamining of their data - this is a rule of the Bodog service that is respected by PokerTracker.

From what I am aware the Idleminer Hand Grabber was a datamining tool, therefore it may not comply with the Bodog TOS. Additionally Idleminer is owned by PokerTableRatings which has been accused of datamining the Bodog network against its wishes. Bodog's recent campaign is to halt dataminers, the use of PokerTracker for personal tracking of your game is not included in this sweep.

 

[dmorris68]

PokerTracker is a very responsible company within the poker community, we always operate within the TOS of the various poker sites and networks we support. The Terms of Service for Bodog allows personal data collection of your own hands on tables that you are playing at, in turn PokerTracker continues to support Bodog. Bodog's TOS does not permit datamining of their data - this is a rule of the Bodog service that is respected by PokerTracker.

From what I am aware the Idleminer Hand Grabber was a datamining tool, therefore it may not comply with the Bodog TOS. Additionally Idleminer is owned by PokerTableRatings which has been accused of datamining the Bodog network against its wishes. Bodog's recent campaign is to halt dataminers, the use of PokerTracker for personal tracking of your game is not included in this sweep.

Thanks for the official response, and I'm glad to see some PT representation on CC. Now if we could just get a HEM rep...

As far as Bodog's TOS, you're right -- trackers and HUDs have never been formally banned, and pretty much all sites forbid datamining and purchased HH's. So officially there isn't a difference in that regard between Bodog and the other sites (except Cake which as you know is very restrictive in that regard).

However months ago (and I'd have to try and dig up those threads to quote specifics), Bodog was on an obvious mission to stop the use trackers/HUDs. Their representatives said so themselves. Their position was that trackers/HUDs were used by top players who were driving off the casual players (i.e. fish) who felt there was an unfair advantage (bollocks, we all know, but that was their position). It was essentially -- if not literally -- said that they were more concerned about keeping their casual poker players happy because of their casino/sportsbook operation, and were willing to disfranchise the small percentage of winning poker players in the process. Despite the fact that the regular grinders (well, such that you can "grind" on Bodog with its multi-table limitations) most likely to use trackers/HUDs typically generate more rake than your casual player, they made it sound like one winning reg was enough to frustrate X number of fish out of the site and thus the overall rake loss across poker/casino/sportsbook was even greater. Whatever, but this was the last nail in Bodog's coffin for me, and until just recently I stopped playing there completely.

Around that same time, HEM was near completion on their internal Bodog grabber, and Bodog changed something that broke it. As I recall, HEM reached out to Bodog (as they do with other sites and I expect PT does as well), and Bodog basically asked them to stop development of it. HEM complied, apparently led to believe it would become an official policy. I had also read somewhere, and it was logical to assume whether true or not, that they had asked PT to cease as well. HEM users routinely threw this back at HEM support (especially post-BF when US rooms dried up), complaining that they couldn't use HEM with Bodog without spending another $50 on Idleminer's grabber, which eventually stopped working reliably itself. And when Idleminer's grabber quit working, some HEM users defected to PT3, while others who preferred to stay with HEM actually went so far as to use PT3 sans HUD as their Bodog grabber while pointing HEM at the converted HH's and using it as their tracker/HUD.

The fact Bodog never updated their TOS to reflect these stated positions on trackers/HUDs was often pointed out and questioned, including by me. It's been awhile so I can't remember specific quotes or the representatives who stated them, but there was certainly an implication that the TOS would be changed "soon" to reflect their position. The fact that it hasn't by this time, combined with other second-hand comments I've seen around the poker community, leads many to believe they've softened their stance a bit on this. Which I expect is why HEM is also reconsidering theirs.

EDIT:

A quick search through Calvin's blog includes mention of a release they made just last week. While primarily targeting datamining and results reporting operations like sharkscope, PokerScout, and the like, rather than trackers, they nevertheless clearly indicate their priority of casual player over pro player which was the same spiel they were giving against trackers/HUDs awhile back:

http://calvinayre.com/2011/09/21/poker/bodog-poker-introduces-data-blocking/

Bodog Poker has taken another step forward in player protection by implementing data blocking. In order to help out the site’s lifeblood of everyday players, the site will cease being a-party to the wealth of data that populates sites that in the main only benefit poker pro’s. By the end of the year individual player statistics, both live and historical, will no longer be available to data sites. Jonas Odman, Vice President of Bodog Poker Network, said, “It is vital for the online poker industry that the depositing players are put first rather than the high raking professionals who rarely, if ever, add new money to the pot. This is the first in a long line of steps that will make Bodog’s Recreational Poker Model the best place for the casual player to enjoy the game again. Later in the year we will have some additional features that we will roll out along with the new software which we are confident will make the playability of the site one of the best in the industry.”
Bodog’s recreational poker network already made the decision to remove tables from the lobby once they are full to deny data sites the chance to access accurate information on players numbers. This came after they had already forced the gaming industry to rethink its approach towards rakeback causing other sites to follow suit. The latest news from Bodog is just another example of how the global poker industry paradigm is shifting with the Bodog Brand at the forefront.

Oh, and to be clear, I don't of any of us who support datamining. I fully support Bodog and all other sites' crusade against datamining. But prohibiting individual tracker usage is going way too far.

 

[dmorris68]

More digging around on Calvin's site. Bodog really does seem to be going after ANY sort of data tracking. I found the following quotes from this interview regarding their new "Recreational Player Model." Yes, they actually have an official business strategy called that, which seeks to protect casual players from the sharks.

Emphasis is mine.

BB: We see famous poker pros touting other poker sites and those sites encourage poker pros to come play at their tables. Contrary to the other operators in the poker industry, Bodog doesn’t make any effort to go after the pros. Can you explain to our readers why poker pros aren’t attractive in Bodog’s recreation poker model?
JO: Money can only leave a poker eco system in two ways: through rake and withdrawals. Winning players are withdrawing players, and as a poker network our revenue will increase the fewer withdrawing players we have. Interestingly, recreational players also gain from this, because they will get more play for their money.

BB: You’ve mentioned that you are blocking full table data but this is just one part of the equation. What other data are the poker pros using as an advantage over the recreational players?
JO: There are player tracker sites which collect statistics of players’ style of play and their weaknesses. That data is then used by winning players to gain an even bigger edge over casual players.

BB: Do you plan to block that data also?
JO: Yes. We are moving to a completely new software in a couple of months, and that software will block all player tracker software. This will create a more level playing field and is a huge step forward for Bodog’s Recreational Poker Model.

It isn't clear when he said "block all player tracker software" if he meant strictly datamining site software or personal tracking software as well. But given their very clear attitude towards "winning players," it's not hard to read between the lines and infer that they have no interest in supporting PT3/HEM and HUDs either.

I posted a comment on the other article I linked to in the previous post, asking for clarification on their stance regarding personal tracker software. It's awaiting mod review, who knows if it'll be posted or if I get an answer.

Bodog Becky, if you happen to see this, can you get us a more clear answer?

EDIT: Ahah, found something directly from Calvin himself that lumps personal tracking software in with datamining. LOL at Hold'em Indicator being "datamining" software. It's strictly amateur compared to PT3/HEM, so that tells you what their opinion is on the subject.

http://calvinayre.com/2011/01/06/poker/tracking-software-everything-wrong-with-online-poker/

An updated version of Holdem Indicator, the online poker odds calculator, has been released. Reviewers note that the product has been tweaked to circumvent Bodog Poker’s efforts to block such datamining tools. The software sleuths are lauded for performing this great service, which allows you to ‘find the fish and avoid the sharks’. But what are the sharks going to do when their software tells them there are only other sharks at the table?
There’s no doubt that this type of tracking software can be of serious benefit to the serious poker player. But the online poker world is an ecosystem that cannot survive without a fresh supply of ‘fish’. Sure, poker is a game in which the good players get better while the weak players get weaker until they disappear. But through the use of datamining tools, weak players are put at an even greater disadvantage and thus become disenchanted with the game at a much quicker pace. Worse, they tell their friends just how little entertainment their online poker experience provided, discouraging others from ever trying the game.
In other words, the current online poker world resembles Easter Island. The sharks are a small bunch of natives cutting down every tree in sight until there’s no wood left to make a boat in which to go fishing, thereby destroying their ability to sustain life on the Island. It was a dumb idea then. It’s equally dumb now.
Bodog Poker’s own software sleuths will promptly rejig their defenses to render Holdem Indicator (and other programs like it) useless. The trackers will then rejig their own product in an attempt to counter Bodog’s counter, but the next ‘fix’ coming down the pipe will make it impossible for these industry-killing companies to exist. Ultimately, all poker rooms will follow Bodog’s lead, purely out of self-preservation. Poker rooms need to realize they are not in the business of enabling a tiny minority of pros and grinders to earn a living. They are in the business of providing the masses with a form of entertainment.
Think about every poker movie you’ve ever seen. Invariably, the game is portrayed as a battle of wits, will and gamesmanship. The players are portrayed as confident, ballsy men (or women) eager to match their skills against their competition. Nowhere at this cinematic table will you find some dickhead consulting a spreadsheet. We’re just saying…

 

[absoluthamm]

LOL at all of this. They are talking like this is going to get everyone playing there just because no one will have tracking software. All this is going to do is kill the already small amount of traffic that Bodog has even more. Apparently they are in the business of catering only to micro and low level players, who will make them the least amount of rake. I can't see how this and sports betting could possibly result to a bigger cash flow than if they opened up to people who will play some higher stakes and bring something real in regards to rake in.

I wonder if they will take away the notes feature as well, because you know, we don't want anyone to have any information on previous opponents.

 

[PokerTracker]

In November Bodog is expected to launch a new network and poker client, when it is released we will address any reasonable changes required at that time. We will continue to monitor this thread, and answer questions as they come along, we are here to participate with the Cards Chat community and help in any way we can.

 

[fletchdad]

LOL at all of this. They are talking like this is going to get everyone playing there just because no one will have tracking software. All this is going to do is kill the already small amount of traffic that Bodog has even more. Apparently they are in the business of catering only to micro and low level players, who will make them the least amount of rake. I can't see how this and sports betting could possibly result to a bigger cash flow than if they opened up to people who will play some higher stakes and bring something real in regards to rake in.

I wonder if they will take away the notes feature as well, because you know, we don't want anyone to have any information on previous opponents.

FWIW I agree 100%

can someone see that BodogBecky reads this????

 

[dmorris68]

I posted a comment on the other article I linked to in the previous post, asking for clarification on their stance regarding personal tracker software. It's awaiting mod review, who knows if it'll be posted or if I get an answer.

Well what do you know... not only did they post my question, but I got an answer from none other than Jonas Ödman, the Bodog VP interviewed in the link and quote I posted above.

So it's a "grey area" but tracking your opponents will likely be blocked as well, as I suspected.

• David 16 hours ago
  
  Awhile ago it was implied either directly or second-hand that Bodog was lumping individual tracker/HUD users in the same group as dataminers, and were thus seeking to defeat them as well. Can somebody clarify Bodog's current and future position with regards to individual tracking software that tracks only the games those individuals play and their opponents?
  
  Datamining and providing hands to the public is a pretty clear-cut issue that I think the majority of poker players would be against -- however tracking your own stats is a much more contentious area, and there have been some mixed signals from Bodog on this. The TOS hasn't changed to "ban" such trackers, but it has been implied in the past and this ongoing sentiment of Bodog favoring the recreational player over the "pro" player feels like you're still of that opinion.
  
  It would be good to get some official clarification on that. Thanks.

• Jonas Ödman 8 hours ago in reply to David
  
  Hi David,
  
  Good question. Using your own stats to try to improve
  your game is always going to be allowed. It is also clear that datamining is
  not allowed, and we are going to make more software upgrades to prevent
  datamining tools from working on our software. In between we have players' own
  databases of players they have played against. That is a grey zone area but it
  is likely that the software upgrades we are planning will stop these too.
  
  Jonas Ödman
  Vice President, Bodog Network
  (Edited by a moderator)

 

[absoluthamm]

I think it is clear what they are going to move toward. I think they are moving toward either a random number/character combination that will change every time that user sits at a table, or no actual displayed username at all. I remember hearing about Cake talking about this a couple years back. That would make it impossible to keep tabs on your opponents, in every way, but you could still see your own stats.

 

[dmorris68]

I think it is clear what they are going to move toward. I think they are moving toward either a random number/character combination that will change every time that user sits at a table, or no actual displayed username at all. I remember hearing about Cake talking about this a couple years back. That would make it impossible to keep tabs on your opponents, in every way, but you could still see your own stats.

Yeah, for years Cake has blocked opponent tracking in 2 ways: obfuscating opponent names in HH's (so that my player name would appear as d*******8), and by allowing players to change their player names every week or more. The obfuscation approach doesn't defeat screen-scrapers, however the legitimate trackers (well, I know HEM has) have worked with Cake to agree to not screen-scrape opponent names. HEM captures opponents as Player 1, Player 2, etc, allowing you to track your own stats and review your play against these anonymous opponents, without being able to track their stats.

Some other tools however may not be so cooperative with the sites, and I don't see how screen-scrapers could ever be truly blocked unless they obfuscate/remove names on the table and chat as well, so that you basically never know who you're playing with. This would also prevent you from taking notes on your opponents though, and I've not seen them mention that they're going that far.

 

[absoluthamm]

Yeah, for years Cake has blocked opponent tracking in 2 ways: obfuscating opponent names in HH's (so that my player name would appear as d*******8), and by allowing players to change their player names every week or more. The obfuscation approach doesn't defeat screen-scrapers, however the legitimate trackers (well, I know HEM has) have worked with Cake to agree to not screen-scrape opponent names. HEM captures opponents as Player 1, Player 2, etc, allowing you to track your own stats and review your play against these anonymous opponents, without being able to track their stats.

Some other tools however may not be so cooperative with the sites, and I don't see how screen-scrapers could ever be truly blocked unless they obfuscate/remove names on the table and chat as well, so that you basically never know who you're playing with. This would also prevent you from taking notes on your opponents though, and I've not seen them mention that they're going that far.

Yea, I knew that Cake was doing that, I just remember hearing about them taking it even further as to kind of what I was saying above, could've easily been hearsay though.

As far as them truly anonymizing everything to the point where you couldn't even take notes... why wouldn't they? From everything I've heard from Bodog for the last couple weeks, they truly aren't looking to gear towards the type of player that cares about succeeding in poker, so I don't see them having a problem with taking away every little tool available. Or they could have notes, but they clear at the end of your session or when that player leaves the table.

 

[dj11]

Maybe I'm lucky Bodog does not have freerolls any more. I have no BR there, and can not build one from 0. From what I glean Bodog, and MMOG are seeking the occasional weekend drunk kid who can log in, deposit and blow $20 every now and then.

Hell, for the cost of putting up with excess commercials, I can play at Zen, without depositing anything. And FWIW, I received a payout from Zen exactly as stated by Zen (Hustler and others). Club WPT makes free play nearly incomprehensible, so I won't bother with them, but the Bodog model doesn't look any better than the Facebook or Zen model.

Not liking what I am sensing as the Bodog model. There are many many free online games within a social atmosphere, but I prefer poker, and want to take the game seriously. Bodog seems to be working toward excluding even the serious poker hobbyist, let alone wannabe pro.

 

[LombardiStix]

I'm sure I'm fairly alone in saying this on a poker forum for pretty serious card players, but I actually like these policies. It gives back the fun of playing to me. I am not "serious" I've made some money playing online, but I am not playin for a living. I enjoy the strategy of playing a tournament where the only info they have is what they see you do. Using that image to make moves. It isn't nearly as fun for me to already know someone's habits and exploit them with ease. Where is the challenge? Building a strategy to be profitable from that information is a challenge, but it isn't as interesting to me.

So, I thank Bodog for keeping the game interesting to me.

 

[jchris67]

I run tournament indicator on Bodog but rarely even look at it. I can take as good of notes as they can and can be more accurate. I don't see why it would be that big of a deal to the pros. If they truly are superior players, then why would they need it? You can't use a dataminer for live play, so when you do play live after using a crutch like that, you may become the fish.

 

[dmorris68]

I run tournament indicator on Bodog but rarely even look at it. I can take as good of notes as they can and can be more accurate. I don't see why it would be that big of a deal to the pros. If they truly are superior players, then why would they need it? You can't use a dataminer for live play, so when you do play live after using a crutch like that, you may become the fish.

I've responded to this sort of comment so many times by now that I refuse to be drawn into another. I should save my argument in a text file so I can just cut & paste it every time.

Suffice to say that you -- like virtually all who make such claims and attempt to draw parallels to live play -- really don't understand tracking software and how it's used. It's not about datamining, which virtually none of us support. And if your sole frame of reference is Hold'em Indicator, then it's not surprising, as that is hardly a tracker and I would agree is hardly better than note taking (although when multi-tabling it is better than nothing).

 

[jchris67]

So I guess that means that since holdem indicator is not considered a tracker even though it's tracking the players, then it is permitted right? I can see why some people would need to play more than 4 tables at a time considering the fact that since black friday, the tables that are filling up now are lower stakes, so why not just go to a B&M casino. A couple of pros' videos I watched wasn't using anything and are turning a nice profit. When multi-tabling, do you really have time to look at the trackers?

 

[dmorris68]

Hold'em Indicator was one piece of software Bodog specifically mentioned trying to defeat, although them calling it "datamining" software is ridiculous.

Multi-tabling (well, more than 4-6 tables) is actually one of the biggest reasons to use a HUD. That's where virtually all of your reads come from. Using a HUD at micro stakes is mostly an exercise in futility, but the tracking side is still useful for analyzing your own game. Which a lot of people don't seem to get -- there's far more value in using a tracker to analyze your game than to just see other player's stats, especially when you're starting out.

When you're at the nosebleed stakes where everybody knows everybody already and have the skills to put players on ranges without even trying, then trackers/HUDs are also less useful. For everyone in between the micros and nosebleeds that are semi-serious about the game, they're super important.

 

[Makwa]

In November Bodog is expected to launch a new network and poker client, when it is released we will address any reasonable changes required at that time. We will continue to monitor this thread, and answer questions as they come along, we are here to participate with the Cards Chat community and help in any way we can.

Excellent, I would love to stay with the Dog. The site and support have always been fine by me, and Becky was a good contributor and helper here (get her off the party circuit please so we can hear from her again).
Have not been there recently because have other site commitments. If Dog ever disables my PT however, I will withdraw and move elsewhere. No hard feelings, but I think the Dog will suffer by crippling personal trackers, We shall see... I stay tuned... :willy:

 

[fletchdad]

Excellent, I would love to stay with the Dog. The site and support have always been fine by me, and Becky was a good contributor and helper here (get her off the party circuit please so we can hear from her again).
Have not been there recently because have other site commitments. If Dog ever disables my PT however, I will withdraw and move elsewhere. No hard feelings, but I think the Dog will suffer by crippling personal trackers, We shall see... I stay tuned... :willy:

I agree. I have accounts at a number of sites, and am starting to multi table and increase my volume. I find myself only at stars anymore. I am probably gonna withdraw at dog and others and play only stars. If I could multi table with my HEM at other sites I would. (Yea, I know there are a couple but its a bodog thread, and stars always has the traffic...))

 

[jchris67]

Yep I miss poker stars here in the US. It was always one of my favorite sites. Maybe some day it will come back to the US markets. However, alot of the trackers didn't work there either. Don't remember which ones.

 

[dmorris68]

Yep I miss Poker Stars here in the US. It was always one of my favorite sites. Maybe some day it will come back to the US markets. However, alot of the trackers didn't work there either. Don't remember which ones.

I'd be curious to know which trackers you're referring to, because any tracker/HUD that mattered or was known at all worked fine with Stars, and still does. Stars has always been very cooperative with personal tracking software and HUDs.