How to deal with collusion

[tenbob]

Ok i need serious advise on this, please no 15 posters or messers or insults.

My usual 50euro (live) game on monday night has run into the problem of collusion. Tracy made an open accusation last monday night and walked off the table because from 10 players down to 4 she was being played out against a group of 3 players that are great buddies.

Myself and tracy run this game as our mainstay game in our town, we both play and we both play to win even if its against each other, same bankroll but we still play hard and agressive, even if its early in the tourney, and against each other, maybe you guys may think its stupid, but its HONEST poker.

Now in the past three weeks 3 new players have arrived, only 1 of them gets involved in a pot a any one stage, even when its 4 way. Its been noticed BIG TIME and a lot of the regulars are considering leaving.

Now on Monday I need to know how to broach this subject without causing a major upset because this game is fast becoming THE game to win in our town and I'm seen as the organiser and as such the person responsible for sorting out these problems.

Advise on this would really be greatly appreciated. And if someone on this forum can solve it, ill be verygreatful.

Now Xd, Bill, Nick, village asshole (sorry drunk spelling is dodgy at the mo), sorry if ive left any one out!!!

HELP ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW -------- No probs with PM's on this issue, Just put "COLLUSION" in the topic

 

[Bill_Hollorian]

First, are you POSITIVE they are colluding?
If so, you have a huge problem, but there are diplomatic means to handle it.

first this is your game, so you have to sorta bow here is how I'd handle it.

1.) You sit out next time, and deal. Announce as a general policy that collusion has been raised as a concern and that tonight you will be dealing, and viewing any discards that YOU deam suspect. In other words no one may request that you look at so and so's cards. It is at your sole discretion. When you peek keep it discreet, and look at least a few random peoples cards each hand as well. I promise that you will never have to confront the folks because they will get it, and they will not collude that night. Afterwards you play and specifically watch for collusion techniques. I don't know how good they are but many techniques are pretty hard to catch in general.

"softplay collusion"= oh it's just us? I check then...aka husband and wife.
the above solution works, this isn't a cheating team, just some folks softplayin their friends. After a check down peek at the cards, discreetly. People using this technique are friends, not trying to chase their friends out, this is not malicious, and a pleasant reminder that this is poker will take care of it.

"dump if I raise dude!" This is tough to catch, but is a better way to cheat, as it simply puts the best hand up against the field. This is done by folks a bit more malicious than the first example.

"Dude if I raise, you reraise so we can trap a guy", done by retards this is way malicious and requires "collusion mathematics" in other words if they can't beat the game legit, they probably cant collude very well either. again reserving the right to randomly look at players hands will resolve this. The play to look for is Raise, reraise, rereraise, get everyone out then check it down. These folks should be not invited back, they are cheats period and destroy the integrity of the game.

In the last example I will play against thos colluders, fold everything ut powerful hands, and just call the raise war. At the river reraise for value you will cripple both players severely.

Hope that helps

Bill




This is if it is a "friendly" game and you dont want to chase anyone away.

 

[tenbob]

1.)
"dump if I raise dude!" This is tough to catch, but is a better way to cheat, as it simply puts the best hand up against the field. This is done by folks a bit more malicious than the first example.



QUOTE]

Ok Bill nail on the head, but imm pissed off with myself about not spotting it, its been going on for weeks.

Tracy put the accusiation out there the last night. but she was drinking so the guys wont count that. But also ive since disovered that these 3 guys are at this all over our locality, playing 6 nights a week. Now fair play to them but Bill NOT AT MY GAME.

I like your idea about dealing, i might try it. But i was thinking, what do i do if u catch a big one, Ie KK VS AA and a KK folds to a min raise. ???

One of these guys is a (kinda) friend from university we both studied math/physics so i know he is a good player and is using his mates, its also a small town and accusations are not a small deal.

Thanks for the input Bill (Sorry for the PM ---Stress)

 

[diabloblanco]

As I see it you're the "go to guy" in this situation as the organizer and thus it is basically your responsibility to keep things above board and the honest players happy and coming back. I really like Bill's idea about having a dedicated dealer (yourself) deal the whole night after informaing the entire room before the first hand that concerns have been raised regarding collusion or softplay and that you will be--at your sole discression--checking mucked cards made by any player in a situation you deem necessary. Great idea Bill.

My suggestion, before reading Bill's, was a bit more direct, but is merely a reflection on my personality, as I take something like this as an insult to myself especially in "my house". I would pull the one suspected colluder aside (your college pal) away from everyone, before any drinks, and in a discreet manner explain to him the situation as it stands. Tell him that this is your game and that you are responsible for the smoothness of its operation and collusion of any sort will no longer be tolerated. Explain that you cannot confirm that it is in fact happening at this point because if you could they would already be politely asked to leave and not return. Inform him that you have every intention on stopping this starting this session and without informing anyone who is unknowing of any past wrongdoing. Also, let him be aware that if you even so much as suspect that they or anyone else is doing anything of the sort, they will be given back their buyin less the house take and told to not return.

I really like Bill's idea, I just happen to be a much more direct kind of person (read: asshole) when it comes to a situation like this. I consider it a personal insult. Think about it, these guys have theoretically stolen from you, your girlfriend, and your other honest players, week after week. It is the house's (you) responsibility to make sure this doesn't happen to the players too slow to catch it on their own.

In doing this, and handling this problem, you will also become known as a no-bullshit kind of person who runs an honest game and this is a good thing for you if you want to attract more players. People like to feel like their cash is safe (even though they're gambling it away).

Hope that helped, let us know how it goes.

 

[titans4ever]

I would do both Bill and Diablos advice together. You talk to your friend privately before hand and the do the announcement proir to starting that nights game. You mentioned that you think he is using his two friends. Make sure you have dealers at every table for that night if you have more than one and look at everyones hands at least once.

I also look at it from the "not at my house". Your game is THE GAME and you don't want anything to tarnish your reputation. You have new players that are going to ruin your regular game, no no no. You feel free to dump them over your regulars and more respected players. I have had to ask a friend of a friend to not come back because he kept helping push pots to the winner and someone claimed he was palming chips. Another thought they saw it too, so I had to make a call. Sounds like they can play at other places if they are grinding 6 nights a week.

Collusion is not something you want to be associated with. Silence about it can be seen as inclusion on your part. If you knew about it and did nothing then you could have been involved with it.

It sucks being the one to have to make a decision or be looked at as the jerk for kicking them out. Much rather have 2 nobodies and a semi friend mad at me than loose the fun and reputation you have build for your Monday night game. The rest of the group will give you more respect for standing up and doing the right thing.

Honestly, if the same 3 guys are playing together 6 nights a week, that alone sounds kind of suspect. Especially if they are winning or making money each night.

 

[robwhufc]

Its been noticed BIG TIME and a lot of the regulars are considering leaving.

If this is the case, just ban them from playing anymore. You said they are at it all over town, so there won't be any negative comeback on you. If anything it should strengthen your game's reputation, and people who'd suffered these 3 at other games could join yours.

If you're worried there's going to be trouble, I know a couple of guys over the water who for a few bob.....

 

[IrishDave]

I think I like Rob's approach the best. It's your game and you need to make sure that it's played fairly. These folks know what they're doing and I doubt they'll even complain when confronted. If as you say it's a small town I suspect these 3 won't be welcome at any of the games soon...

 

[tenbob]

Thanks for the inrput guys, Ive decided what to do. I think a quiet word and then an announcement about me dealing and checking cards is enough for these guys to realise that they are caught. Hopefully they will realise its time to get up at leave at that point, and if they want to make a scene so be it.

At least the game will get respect for being an honest one. Monday night will be very entertaining in more ways than one. LOL

 

[diabloblanco]

Let us know how it works out.

 

[UncleChuckle]

I'm going to be sitting with baited breath now waiting to see how this resolves.

Cheaters are scum.

 

[imhopper]

ok im not sure what u guys are talking about is this a tourney that is in person or online and u think like a couple of people try to raise u out then when they have the winning hand out they take turns getting the pot if thats the case how nice then i guess they spilit the winnings not much sense playing in these tourneys then is there

 

[Bill_Hollorian]

Diablo's heavy handed technique is appropriate, but only once you have proof positive, and I mean positive. When you deal, and you see a hand that indicates collusion, stop the game, ask everyone to leave the room, bring 1 player in at a time, and ask them to explain there actions, next bring the other in, and ask the same thing. Only show each player their own cards. Bring them both back in and show all of the cards, and recall if their answers jibe with the situation. For this last step bring in 2 trustworthy witnesses. By the way, document each and every explanation so far...meaning right it down, and ask them to initial it.
Then tell them this event will not be talked about around town, but they need to find a different game. Tell them that if you here them talking about this, you will present the hand in detail with anyone who asks. So they can leave quietly and not return, or bad mouth you and your game, and ruin their own reputations...

Diablo is definately correct, folks will flock to your game when it gets out that you handled this situation! Friends don't collude in a friends game. If they are cheating they are not friends and do not deserve respect.

Good luck, I am also very curious to hear how this situation unfolds,please post asap!
Bill

 

[tenbob]

Ok folks just out of the shower and heading in for the game,so this is going to be a quick post, i've decided to talk to the table and let EVERYBODY know the rules of the house in regards to colliusion. This in itself should let the lads know that their cards are marked and the issue should die there and then.

One of them actually called me today to ask if they were still welcome to the game so they know that they are probably caught (or at least that we suspect them)

Ill let you guys know how this all pans out.

 

[tenbob]

Just back from an an ok night, Tracy won one game and i came second in the other. My aces got cracked by a set of 7's.

But back to the issue, when i went in the game was already set up and no sign of the colluders, so i seen this as an oppertunity to say what i had to say without the guys there, I fuigured that if i make my play to the first table that the second table could have no issues about it. So i made the point very clear that collusion and chip dumping would have no place in my game ( i had the land-lord beside me at this point) and anyone even suspected would be barred from the game.

Thats when i realised that more players than i thought had copped on to what was going on, names were mentioned and certain regulars said that it was about time that it was mentioned, and sorted.

So when the 3 lads came in the second and third table started up (best turn out ever) so i went over and made the same speach. I try to re-iterate what i said .........
" Collusion is when 2 or more players at the same table play together, with the aim of bullying other people out of the pot in order to dump chips to their collegues, usually the short stack, this is just one example of how it is done, and it will not be tolderated at my game. Any player, and their accosiates, even suspected of collusion will be instantly barred from this game and will not be welcome back. Remember folks this is a re-iteration of the rules and is not a reflection on anyone here"

What happened next is that my "friend" asked for a private word, so i obliged. He asked me straight out if i was accusing him . My reply.....
"Number one the issue was raised with me and i have no choice but to take action on it, I feel that this is the best way to deal with the issue, we have several new players tonight and I feel that this is the informal way of dealing with it while re-iterateing the rules, and making sure that I hold an honest game "

Brian ---- " So your not accusing me "

Tenbob " I dont accuse i just kick people out of my game, i run an honest house, if you have a problem with any issue u brought up you should leave now "

Brian " No I dont Liam so there is no direct accusation"
Tenbob " Nope as i said re-iterating the rules and making it clear to any new players that cheating wont be tolerated"

Brian " Sound, Liam thanks i just wanted to clear that up"

the game went well, and the boy played up against each other like everyone else, caught but not caught if you know what i mean. I gave every player the same spech and i think it worked out well. Thanks for the advise everyone. But if anything like this happens again i will be taking Bills advice on the issue and dealing and checking mucked cards.

BTW First time in ages i won a pot on the dead mans hand !!!!!!!! AA 88 J (88 in the pocket)

 

[titans4ever]

Glad it got cleared up without much of an incident. I think it being called out by Tracy the week before let them know they have been busted. They had a week to think about it and realized that if they want to keep playing that they need to play straight up.

Here is to your game becoming THE GAME. Sounds like your game is intact if this is the best turnout so far. It will only get better after your little speech. Instant street cred (respect) for not allowing anything like that at your games and stating what the punishment is if even suspected.

 

[diabloblanco]

On further thought about my approach, I admit that it was a bit of a hot-headed way to go about things. BillH was correct in stating that my approach was more the route to take when you have definitive proof that players are cheating/colluding. My temperment is not my strong suit as most of you who have been here long enough know all to well after having read my many rambling, pissed off posts. I still favor my way, when proof-positive is there, but BH was right when he cautioned not to do anything rash until that evidence is there.

Anyway, all that is immaterial now, tenbob handled it his way and everything worked out square. He most likely gained the respect of both new and old players for his effort to maintain integrity of the game and circumvented further cheating by the accused. All went to plan.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

Man talk about hanging yourself. What a way to say I'm guilty than to ask to take you aside after you made your speech and ask those questions he did. If you had any doubts that should have erased them.