Why should he have re-raised pre-flop with pocket AA ?

[RickAversion]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mTcL4Xcho&list=UU64-fNywygmtRN6NR69f0PA

At 2:01, the announcer says Helmuth screwed up by not re-raising pre-flop?

Since AA can easily be beat by trips or straights or flushes, does he just mean that Phil should have have been happy with whatever preflop action he could have gotten from the first raise? And gotten one or both of them to both fold? Ie: It's too dangerous to go to the flop with 3 players when you have AA?

 

[Beanfacekilla]

It was a cooler for Helmuth.

However, a re-raise preflop may have taken it down right there, or perhaps even reduced the hand to HU. It is generally a bad idea to see a flop multi way with A-A. There is a greater probability of someone else making a better hand post-flop.

If you are going to play a multi way pot with A-A, or it is unavoidable, you need to be able to get away in the face of heavy action. It is after all just a pair. Hand-ranging 101.

The purpose of a reraise is to reduce # of villains, and thus reduce the # of landmines one may encounter. It is also a good way to get more chips into the pot in a +EV situation.

However, this whole situation is results-biased.

FWIW, I would have re-raised preflop with the rockets. The general idea is to try and play a pot HU, not multi-way.

And lastly, This is my opinion, based on my experience and the things I have learned over the years. I am not even going to claim to be even near the same level as Phil Helmuth.

 

[baudib1]

AA is more profitable the more players you get to the flop.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

AA is more profitable the more players you get to the flop.

Of course there may be more money in the middle, but you are saying that you wouldn't mind going to a flop with 4 other opponents?

Perhaps I am mistaken. Perhaps I need to re-learn a lot of things (no sarcasm, genuine).

Would you care to expand on this please?

 

[jcdagenius]

for value pre flop is best play....and these days people will call to see a flop so often

 

[Juanes1913]

It was a cooler for Helmuth.

However, a re-raise preflop may have taken it down right there, or perhaps even reduced the hand to HU. It is generally a bad idea to see a flop multi way with A-A. There is a greater probability of someone else making a better hand post-flop.

If you are going to play a multi way pot with A-A, or it is unavoidable, you need to be able to get away in the face of heavy action. It is after all just a pair. Hand-ranging 101.

The purpose of a reraise is to reduce # of villains, and thus reduce the # of landmines one may encounter. It is also a good way to get more chips into the pot in a +EV situation.

However, this whole situation is results-biased.

FWIW, I would have re-raised preflop with the rockets. The general idea is to try and play a pot HU, not multi-way.

And lastly, This is my opinion, based on my experience and the things I have learned over the years. I am not even going to claim to be even near the same level as Phil Helmuth.

100% agree.
Mr. Hellmuth mistake was dont re-raise preflop

 

[MTCashman]

I agree, if you have the chance to raise with AA then do it!

 

[emirlidan]

if you aren't raising preflop with AA then you're playing them wrong (my 2 cents)

 

[NateVest]

With the best starting hand, I would want to re-raise in this position to bring the hand to heads up. Biggest mistake with rockets is to slow play them, in Helmuth's case, he should have isolated the field of opponents he was up against by re-raising before the flop. A lot of players do not like to flip for their life and like to see the board before getting more money in the middle. It really all comes down to how early or late you are in the tourney, chip stack count of opponents still in the hand, any reads on opponents, and your chip stack.

 

[NateVest]

With the best starting hand, I would want to re-raise in this position to bring the hand to heads up. Biggest mistake with rockets is to slow play them, in Helmuth's case, he should have isolated the field of opponents he was up against by re-raising before the flop. A lot of players do not like to flip for their life and like to see the board before getting more money in the middle. It really all comes down to how early or late you are in the tourney, chip stack count of opponents still in the hand, any reads on opponents, and your chip stack.

 

[NateVest]

With the best starting hand, I would want to re-raise in this position to bring the hand to heads up. Biggest mistake with rockets is to slow play them, in Helmuth's case, he should have isolated the field of opponents he was up against by re-raising before the flop. A lot of players do not like to flip for their life and like to see the board before getting more money in the middle. It really all comes down to how early or late you are in the tourney, chip stack count of opponents still in the hand, any reads on opponents, and your chip stack.

 

[trekmaster]

The old saying that always sticks with me is its much better to win a small pot than to lose a big one.Without the preflop raise you invite more players into the pot .Yes you could get more reward with more players in the pot but with that posible reward comes big risk.

 

[capecoralhobo]

It was an interesting hand. wsop in the money [Hellmuth placed 436 for $25K]. Five saw the flop. Player to right of Hellmuth raised and everyone in the hand called. Flop J5cT. 1st to act goes all in [89h] and pre-flop raiser folds [so probably no set or draw]. Hellmuth has some outs and goes all in, would have some chips left if it was played HU, but is called by player with 2 pair.

If Hellmuth had re-raised all in, it might have gotten 89h and JTo to fold, and might have taken to pot right then. Unless the pre-flop raiser was playing 77, 33, or 46s Hellmuth likely doubled up instead of getting knocked out.

Maybe that's what the announcer was thinking?

 

[oooo]

if you aren't raising preflop with AA then you're playing them wrong (my 2 cents)

Totally agree! The best way to play AA in my opinion is go all in and hope for only 1 call and pray for the best!

 

[RickAversion]

Anyone know odds of winning with AA against any other hand in head's up?

 

[Beanfacekilla]

84.5%

 

[Marsd]

I am reraising with Aces there for sure---

I dont think Hellmuth would do that today-- I may be wrong, but he plays a bit differently these days. He has adjusted to the players

 

[Zorba]

He played it terribly, he should have re raised to isolate, he's just trying to be fancy, he can afford it.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Looks as if he called the initial raise with only 20bb's behind. If he were to 3bet there anything less than a shove would look UBER STRONG!
Also, good chance if table's been halfway aggressive 'or' if there's other re-steal shove stacks in later positions, then another will raise &/or shove.

I don't think it's terrible at all. Just didn't quite go according to plan is what I'm guessing.

 

[baudib1]

Of course there may be more money in the middle, but you are saying that you wouldn't mind going to a flop with 4 other opponents?

Perhaps I am mistaken. Perhaps I need to re-learn a lot of things (no sarcasm, genuine).

Would you care to expand on this please?

No I wouldn't mind going to a flop with 4 other people with AA. Trust me when I say I get to 4-way/5-way+ flops as the PFR quite often with worse hands than AA.

Reraising with AA is of course always perfectly fine but it is totally legitimate to call a raise at a squeezy table.

And what I said is true: AA makes more money seeing the flop with 4 opponents than 1.

 

[RickAversion]

84.5%

What did you use to calc that?

 

[Beanfacekilla]

What did you use to calc that?

I have an App on my phone. It is called "poker odds calculator" or something, for android phone.

However, you could (and should) download poker stove for your computer. I believe it is free. It is a handy-dandy program to have. You can figure out how your hand does against villain ranges. For example if villain plays any suited, any Broadway, any PP.

You can use poker stove to figure out how hands that you encounter frequently (say A-x suited) play against ranges of loose players, tight players, etc.

 

[RickAversion]

Just got it set up. Thanks.

AA=85%
JJ=77%
TT=75%
Not that big a difference.

Even JJ against 2 randoms gives 63%