When is limping ok?

[johnsulliv]

When does limping become a good strategic play?


I understand there’s a difference between cash and tournament games.

I mean more for tournament play than cash, however any answers would be appreciated.

I would think against crazy opponents that raise and re-raise often, an initial call would allow some control over the pot.

In an incredibly loose/tight table dynamic. Or for other reasons that might make you extend your open ranges.

Are these valid reasons?
If so are there others?

Is it wise to call and raise different hands perhaps trying to conceal your own ranges?

Thank you for your time.

 

[eetenor]

When does limping become a good strategic play?


I understand there’s a difference between cash and tournament games.

I mean more for tournament play than cash, however any answers would be appreciated.

I would think against crazy opponents that raise and re-raise often, an initial call would allow some control over the pot.

In an incredibly loose/tight table dynamic. Or for other reasons that might make you extend your open ranges.

Are these valid reasons?
If so are there others?

Is it wise to call and raise different hands perhaps trying to conceal your own ranges?

Thank you for your time.

Thank U 4 Posting.


How would limping control a crazy raiser?
What range would you limp vs villains who raise 90% of the time?
Limping is used to see a flop cheaply but if you limp in early position and then there are other limpers are you not then giving the CO and BTN a reason to raise a wide range of hands regardless of their player type?
If you are limp calling a raise how does that allow you to control the pot on the 3 streets of betting still to come?
If you are limp folding in tournaments at what stack depth would you do so?

Loose/Tight?
Did you mean a mostly loose table or a mostly tight table?

Passive play is the key to limping.

Which style of play would let you get the most value from a limped wider range post flop loose or tight?

Many poker coaches recommend a min raise to a limp, have you researched why?

Do you think your OOP skill set is good enough for you to be involved in multi-way pots with a wide range?

The most common OOP limp strategy in loose aggressive tournaments is to limp reraise AA KK QQ.
The purpose is to jam over top of a raise so that you can get heads up with the never folding raiser and knock out the other limpers so that you steal their equity back.
The reason you limp jam is because if you were to raise you would not be 3 bet just called by 4 players.
If you can count on getting raised when you min raise OOP then that is the more profitable play as you will get the same callers and the same raiser and be able to jam 4 bet and get 2 bets from the limpers not 1.


Hope this helps

 

[tame4g]

You might want to limp if your table has a lot of fish and you have a hand that can potentially flop the nuts and play well multiway, such as suited connectors or small pocket pairs. Late in tournaments (around FT), limping with a monster like KK and AA can be a good idea in order to trap anyone who attempts a steal, but this is easy to spot from tight players. Just my 2 cents!

 

[gwj63]

i always thought limping was a bad idea,
if its good enough to play, its good enough to raise, but...
if i'm going to use limping as a strategy in a tournament,
on the button with aa or kk, limp, let the blinds catch a smaller pair or a draw
and hope it doesn't backfire
its a huge risk anytime to limp but this could pay off huge too

 

[YKCaiTLH1314]

There are a few situation that i will limp;
Cash game,
Open limp with AA when first to act
Over limp with AT, AJ

Tourney,
NEVER open limp, only over limp with Ax with players behind me.

 

[pentazepam]

Almost only open limp with deep stacks if the other players allow it and the pay you off if you hit hard with a low pair or suited connectors.

So in a deep cash game I would never open limp if the opponents are observant and can read your limp range.

To limp behind is something completely different especially in late position. You get a great chance to see a cheap flop with semi-bad hands like AXs or unsuited broadways/connectors.

An interesting thing is that in HUSnG and spin and go's a open-limping strategy can be superior if you are deeper than the fold or all-in phase (deeper than 10BB).

You get more play post flop in position and can get more play against aggressive opponents. (But if they over-fold it is still better to mini-raise).

 

[Amanda A]

I think it is ok even correct to limp after others in a tourney with spec hands like suited connectors or a small pair. You are getting the right odds to try and hit a big hand - a set or a strong draw. Don't do this when there are some aggressive players in late position who are going to raise, 3 bet, 4 bet, etc. But at a table which has done a few limps around, this is in my humble opinion, good strategy. At some tables it might be ok to open limp with these kind of hands if there's a good chance of starting a limping train that gets through.

 

[johnsulliv]

Thank U 4 Posting.


How would limping control a crazy raiser?
What range would you limp vs villains who raise 90% of the time?
Limping is used to see a flop cheaply but if you limp in early position and then there are other limpers are you not then giving the CO and BTN a reason to raise a wide range of hands regardless of their player type?
If you are limp calling a raise how does that allow you to control the pot on the 3 streets of betting still to come?
If you are limp folding in tournaments at what stack depth would you do so?

Loose/Tight?
Did you mean a mostly loose table or a mostly tight table?

Passive play is the key to limping.

Which style of play would let you get the most value from a limped wider range post flop loose or tight?

Many poker coaches recommend a min raise to a limp, have you researched why?

Do you think your OOP skill set is good enough for you to be involved in multi-way pots with a wide range?

The most common OOP limp strategy in loose aggressive tournaments is to limp reraise AA KK QQ.
The purpose is to jam over top of a raise so that you can get heads up with the never folding raiser and knock out the other limpers so that you steal their equity back.
The reason you limp jam is because if you were to raise you would not be 3 bet just called by 4 players.
If you can count on getting raised when you min raise OOP then that is the more profitable play as you will get the same callers and the same raiser and be able to jam 4 bet and get 2 bets from the limpers not 1.


Hope this helps

Thank you tremendously, there's alot to digest there, and some very interesting questions and has given me a lot to think about.

 

[johnsulliv]

You might want to limp if your table has a lot of fish and you have a hand that can potentially flop the nuts and play well multiway, such as suited connectors or small pocket pairs. Late in tournaments (around FT), limping with a monster like KK and AA can be a good idea in order to trap anyone who attempts a steal, but this is easy to spot from tight players. Just my 2 cents!

I do agree, limping is certainly an action that is directed at someone or a group of opponents in particular.

Thank you for your time.

 

[johnsulliv]

i always thought limping was a bad idea,
if its good enough to play, its good enough to raise, but...
if i'm going to use limping as a strategy in a tournament,
on the button with aa or kk, limp, let the blinds catch a smaller pair or a draw
and hope it doesn't backfire
its a huge risk anytime to limp but this could pay off huge too

Haha, very risking slow playing the aces, in any position against anyone with anything.

I do agree that if your going to play it you can raise it, but sometimes the table plays differently.

 

[ASMautoneJr]

That's it, a lot of observation to your opponents and dynamic variance when betting to hide your game but not forgetting and keeping in mind what to do.

 

[fundiver199]

In games without antes there is pretty much no reason to limp, if you are first to enter the pot. It can sometimes be ok to limp behind other limpers though, if your hand play well in a multiway pot and a deep stack to pot ratio. The prime example of this is small and medium pairs like 22-88.

In games with antes the situation is a little bit different, because there is that extra dead money or chips to fight for, and you are getting a better price, if you limp. Especially limping from SB can have merit in that situation, because you also have the disadvantage of being out of position against BB.

In tournaments a further reason for limping is, that it can allow you to play more hands with a short stack, because you give your opponents worse risk/reward to jam on you. If you make a standard open with a stack like 12-15 BB, it is very attractive for your opponents to jam on you, because ICM considerations force you to fold a lot.

This mean, that either limping or open jamming can be a better option to simply take that play away from them. They can still jam over a limp, but you lose less, when you fold, and therefore they are getting a worse risk/reward. In this scenario you should also mix in some very strong hands in your limping range, so you are not always limp-folding, when you limp.

 

[PatriceM915]

Good afternoon friend. I often analyze the flop for a betting action but mainly evaluate how the flopped player has acted. If he is aggressive and I have a nuts I will pay or bet him to think that I have low game. A hint.

 

[tauri103]

This is clearly a losing action in the long run. but it may happen that at the end of the tournament it is justified to limp, if you know that your opponents are rather passive. or to trap with a strong hand limp / call with KK / AA.

The small blind position is special. Because if you limp, it only costs you half a blind to come into play and only one player must speak after you. This is a situation that may seem conducive to limp. It is, provided your opponent is passive. Because an aggressive player will immediately identify your range of hand, which will certainly be weak. He will often raise to put pressure on you. for summary you must never be the first to enter the pot limpant except to complete the blind if one or more players have completed before you.

 

[dorynel7]

Never, a good poker player doesn't make it.
Otherwise you risk losing your favorite hand.

 

[johnsulliv]

In games without antes there is pretty much no reason to limp, if you are first to enter the pot. It can sometimes be ok to limp behind other limpers though, if your hand play well in a multiway pot and a deep stack to pot ratio. The prime example of this is small and medium pairs like 22-88.

In games with antes the situation is a little bit different, because there is that extra dead money or chips to fight for, and you are getting a better price, if you limp. Especially limping from SB can have merit in that situation, because you also have the disadvantage of being out of position against BB.

In tournaments a further reason for limping is, that it can allow you to play more hands with a short stack, because you give your opponents worse risk/reward to jam on you. If you make a standard open with a stack like 12-15 BB, it is very attractive for your opponents to jam on you, because ICM considerations force you to fold a lot.

This mean, that either limping or open jamming can be a better option to simply take that play away from them. They can still jam over a limp, but you lose less, when you fold, and therefore they are getting a worse risk/reward. In this scenario you should also mix in some very strong hands in your limping range, so you are not always limp-folding, when you limp.

Sound logic there.
Generally I like to only call after one or multiple limpers, and try to refrain from limping myself as much as possible, unless I expect to see a lot of hands.

 

[johnsulliv]

This is clearly a losing action in the long run. but it may happen that at the end of the tournament it is justified to limp, if you know that your opponents are rather passive. or to trap with a strong hand limp / call with KK / AA.

The small blind position is special. Because if you limp, it only costs you half a blind to come into play and only one player must speak after you. This is a situation that may seem conducive to limp. It is, provided your opponent is passive. Because an aggressive player will immediately identify your range of hand, which will certainly be weak. He will often raise to put pressure on you. for summary you must never be the first to enter the pot limpant except to complete the blind if one or more players have completed before you.

I agree with this, by limping the chance is taken away to possibly win the hand without showdown or preflop.

Thank you for your time.

 

[madmandown]

Limping is good if the opponent is tight or passive

 

[syarbouh]

Limping can have some serious advantages when done properly. And while aggression in poker has increased exponentially over the years which has led many players to think that raising/isolating limpers is always better – there are plenty of spots where limping proves to be a MORE profitable approach.
The overall ethos most studied players follow is that if there are a couple of people limping in front of you, you should either be folding or raising to punish the limpers and take control well, for the most part, this is correct and limping definitely isn’t the most impressive part of the overall gameplay plan. However, it still has its place in the grand scheme of things and there are situations where you’re simply better off limping along with certain poker hands.

 

[johnsulliv]

Limping can have some serious advantages when done properly. And while aggression in poker has increased exponentially over the years which has led many players to think that raising/isolating limpers is always better – there are plenty of spots where limping proves to be a MORE profitable approach.
The overall ethos most studied players follow is that if there are a couple of people limping in front of you, you should either be folding or raising to punish the limpers and take control well, for the most part, this is correct and limping definitely isn’t the most impressive part of the overall gameplay plan. However, it still has its place in the grand scheme of things and there are situations where you’re simply better off limping along with certain poker hands.

I totally agree with you that it has its advantages.
Is calling one or more limpers still limping?
I think too in most cases, raising or folding are the better play.

 

[Iggykiddo]

I mostly limp to trap players in late game tournys.

But its very important to play dynamic to not show your play style/tactics, it get easy readable if you play too static. So limping can be good against players who dont know you're about to try trap them etc.

 

[Anton Fedorov]

If your opponents understand your limp range, it will be quite difficult to win. Sometimes for balance I play through the limp. Only if I’m sure that I won’t have jam or 3bet if the table is rather passive. If there is a 3bet after you, then calling this 3bet after limping is a rather dubious undertaking. Or play through the limp against the nit on your return range. But it’s not always possible to exploit after limping, as initiative is still important.

 

[thetick33]

i limp out of position often... especially if have large pockets.... is a lot of players that will shove on your blind action or if in front of blind etc... I caught two yesterday who shoved into aa and kk.... at times being tricky works and a limp is just another tool.... the obvious if out of position limp but if you know a guy likes to slam your blind and you are small they are big its a nice or not so nice move remember that the basic thing you are trying to do is get the other player(s) to make decisions.... not necessarily making the decisions yourself.... make them work and is as said just another tool to use in the right situations

 

[johnsulliv]

I mostly limp to trap players in late game tournys.

But its very important to play dynamic to not show your play style/tactics, it get easy readable if you play too static. So limping can be good against players who dont know you're about to try trap them etc.

Thanks for your input.
So calling out of position, is that the same as limping?
I would imagine you have already a good read on your opponent before you try to trap?

If I understand correctly, you give the impression you want to see a cheap flop with a mediocre hand, but actually have something ahead of what your up against?

I tend to raise more at the end of tourneys, and have sometimes limped in after a large hand has been won or the table has become very tight against an aggressor who has left or had their stack diminished.

 

[johnsulliv]

i limp out of position often... especially if have large pockets.... is a lot of players that will shove on your blind action or if in front of blind etc... I caught two yesterday who shoved into aa and kk.... at times being tricky works and a limp is just another tool.... the obvious if out of position limp but if you know a guy likes to slam your blind and you are small they are big its a nice or not so nice move remember that the basic thing you are trying to do is get the other player(s) to make decisions.... not necessarily making the decisions yourself.... make them work and is as said just another tool to use in the right situations

I think I understand perfectly.
Recently I was the big guy being the bully, the small blind limped at me and I called, he checked and I bet... Strongly haha, he had me so beat.
It taught me another lesson anyway.

Yeah against maniacs limping is a good tool that gives us a better chance of seeing a flop

Thank you for you time.