Bengals_Boy
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Jack Daniels
Charcoal Mellowed
Silver Level
Here is a fairly long thread we have running on Razz: Razz Poker: The who, what, why, when, where, and how of it all
There is a fair bit of commentary from the unknowing regarding Rass and skill, but if you read through the thread you'll find some various book recommendations. Basically the short answer is:
1. If you don't already have it, buy Sklansky on Poker and read/reread the entire Razz section.
2. Do NOT buy Play Razz Poker to Win by Mitchell Cogert. See the thread as to why not.
And regarding hands you're not sure of, you can post those in hand analyis even though they are Razz hands. You'll get plenty of commentary looking to help you out. Definitely help us build the razz discussion some more as we are definitely in the minority here.
There is a fair bit of commentary from the unknowing regarding Rass and skill, but if you read through the thread you'll find some various book recommendations. Basically the short answer is:
1. If you don't already have it, buy Sklansky on Poker and read/reread the entire Razz section.
2. Do NOT buy Play Razz Poker to Win by Mitchell Cogert. See the thread as to why not.
And regarding hands you're not sure of, you can post those in hand analyis even though they are Razz hands. You'll get plenty of commentary looking to help you out. Definitely help us build the razz discussion some more as we are definitely in the minority here.
skoldpadda
Caveman Eye Surgeon
Bronze Level
Ive looked around and do not see much talk about razz.I am learning the game and have already made a final table in a freeroll on fulltilt but i still need some help with what hands i should open and when i should raise what hands.
Post some hands in the ring or tourney hand analysis sections. There are a handful of razz players here who will give you feedback.
Bengals_Boy
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Is it true that razz is more difficult to play than holdem.Ive heard that in almost evey chat at razz mtts.Is it just cause they cant play holdem and cant deal with the whole no limit aspect of it.I know its very frusterating game(razz )and ive never got so mad over getting pairs and face cards but atleast you get a taste of their hand.
Jack Daniels
Charcoal Mellowed
Silver Level
Skold is right, it is comparing apples/oranges. It's like asking if limit 5 card draw is tougher than pot limit omaha.
The only possible comparison we can make between razz (a 7 card stud game) vs hold'em (a 7 card flop game) is that stud is generally a tougher game to get a good grasp of simply because there are more cards to remember (nothing is community 99.99999999% of the time) and many of those cards that you saw will disappear as people fold their hands. The percentages and edges in razz are different and a lot of the maniac aggression in hold'em doesn't translate as well to razz. For example, drawing to a straight in NLHE could be an expensive and stupid thing. However drawing to a four card hand is razz vs your opponents already made 5 card hand can be easily justified. Etc etc.
But in short, only loose comparisons can be made; they are very diffenent games overall.
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
I don't think this is the reason the stud games are harder to figure out than hold'em. Its because the equities are so goofy.
With hold'em, if you have a made hand, you're ahead or flipping with pretty much any drawing hand. Newbies can figure that out. Its also easy to know that if I have top pair top kicker, your TP2K is drawing very slim. The equity in most all NLHE situations is very simple.
The stud games are a whole 'nother ball of wax. With razz & stud 8, "it depends" applies so much. Draws are often big favorites over made hands (but sometimes they're not), the cards that are out change your 3rd street decisions so much, and who is statistically favored in the hand changes a lot each time a new card is dealt. New players often have trouble knowing if they're behind or ahead. I can't count the number of times that I've wrongly capped a street playing stud 8 because I thought I was ahead, and people have wrongly capped against me quite often.
The best thing you can do is review your sessions, and run the numbers on every hand you play into an odds calculator. Once you do this enough, and you try enough different situations, you'll start to get a grasp for what hand is a favorite over what.
However, contrary to hold'em, once you learn the equities, a lot of the bets in razz or stud 8 become automatic. One hand bricks 4th, you don't, so you bet. NLHE has a lot less "automatic" plays, because your opponent has a wider range of hands & because its not a limit game. Stud games give you a lot of information to work with by looking at an opponent's board, however with hold'em, player's ranges can often still be quite wide on the late streets of betting. So NLHE is often considered a more complex game than some of the stud games are. But really like skold said, its like comparing apples to oranges, and just about any poker game is going to allow skill to give you an edge.
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nevadanick
Back to work ... zzzzz
Silver Level
As others have said already, both styles of game are 'difficult' in mastering - but each one in it's own unique way.
You can't really compare no limit games to limit games alone. How does limit holdem compare to limit razz? Our casino periodically runs no limit 7 stud MTT's. That's nothing more than nlhe on steroids. There are a number of 'no limit' games: holdem, omaha, omaha h/l, 2-7 single draw. Then there are 'limit' games including those just mentioned, plus stud, studE, razz, HORSE, SHOE, 2-7 triple draw, and a few more. The PL players are a third unique grouping. The ones who play well and understand PL, and those online who use PL to get everyone committed to ALL-IN as quickly as possible. The PL games provide a medium ground between limit and NL.
Just something I've observed over years of playing is that many holdem players might really do better at stud type games. Why? They get bored playing one game and have to learn to multi-table. Few will sit through folding 85% of their hands playing one table. Then others prefer the challenge and adrenalin rushes associated with NL games. They live for it. More power to 'em - play on.........
Multi-tabling in stud style games I would NEVER recommend, at least not more than 2 or 3. You are making decisions on every street. You need to see (and recall) the cards that have been in play on the board. You even get one street of 'little bets' (or 'low bets') to see cards. In stud, razz, triple draws, horse, etc, you get to play a much greater percentage of hands. Most players are involved to some point in at least 60-70% of their hands.
I don't find any one game more frustrating than any other game. In holdem, you can't hit the flops or draws. In stud you're facing rainbow rags while others get dealt rolled up A's. Badugi hands are regularly suited with pairs. Razz hands with 2 bricks in the hole. Three suited, un-connected stud hand starters. But then, no different than holdem, some days you just can't miss.
Play the games you enjoy, not what 'everyone else' seems to be playing.
nevadanick
Back to work ... zzzzz
Silver Level
I would tend to disagree. 'Equity' in stud (type limit games) is irrelevant to me when making action decisions. Setting aside the portion of 'reads' on another player, you are playing the cards, not the 'odds' as you would in holdem.
skoldpadda
Caveman Eye Surgeon
Bronze Level
With a site like FTP which lists the cards dealt in the chat, I have been able to 5-6 table razz profitably when the mood strikes. Generally I pick the best 2-3 tables for my game though.
I think it is quite easy to play 3 or 4 tables at a time, since you are generally only in 1-2 hands at most at a time.
nevadanick
Back to work ... zzzzz
Silver Level
Maybe if I had a huge monitor and could have all tables completely visible, I could do more than a few. I have to tile mine and then you lose the advantage of seeing the opponents cards before some are folded. This has a huge bearing on knowing where you stand.
In razz games (which the OP is asking about) there isn't any chat that I know of that shows the dealt cards for stud type games. For holdem, yes, but not razz or stud. I think the 'chat listed cards' applies only to 'community card' games. Sure, you can check in the chat, but then I'd spend half my time scrolling and trying to figure out what happened.