Micro Can't win with premium hands no matter how large I make PFR bet 3bet 4bet. All players loosing

[chump39]

Hi
Playing 0.2/0.5 Coinpoker

Note most tables have an average vpip% 15-30 3bet% 5-25.
But the players usually have a 3bet call of over 50%!

I'm under the UTG2 with Premium hand and open raise 3bb I'll get 4 callers.
If I do the same but open 9bb/15bb/25bb I'll still get at least 2 callers.

When facing a bet pre-flop, I can 3bet 3x/5x/10 their bet and get 2 callers.

I go to the flop 3 ways with AK QQ JJ, I'm facing sets, 2 pair, straight and flush draws.

When I get to the river I can never value bet as I'm usually facing an all in and lose.

I searched my Poker tracker for winning players and only found one player. He had a 3bet call of 58%

So should I just go back to 3bb opening and 3x their bet as a 3bet? Or any other Ideas

 

[monkeytilter]

You are in the World's easiest poker game, the only challenging part is now beating the rake.

Embrace the fact that there is very little play in this game, you don't need to do anything other than open big with a very tight range then value bet every street when you have top pair+ Vs 1 villain and top 2 pair+ against multiple villians (unless board goes 4 to a flush or straight and you aren't nutted). You can experiment with over limping in position with small pocket pairs and suited connectors looking to either smash the flop or fold.

It should be obvious what you need to do with your 3 betting: 3 bet big and only with AA/KK/QQ/AK, no fancy bluffs/squeezes/3 betting because you feel like it.

Accept you aren't going to win every pot, that's because there is very little skill edge to be had, you are all relying on hitting hands, the simple trick is to hit bigger ones and get max value every time you do. Very boring, very simple just requires patience and discipline.

One final thought is you may find this game is just unbeatable for you (maybe the rake is just too ridiculous) in which case be honest with yourself and stop playing it, there are plenty of other games.

 

[monkeytilter]

A question on the guy who "calls 3b 58% of the time", how big a sample is this over and what is his opening %age? If he's only opening 5%, you wouldn't expect many folds to 3 bets! I suggest sitting on his table and taking copious notes to see how he's beating the game if he actually is over a decent sample.

 

[pentazepam]

It should be obvious what you need to do with your 3 betting: 3 bet big and only with AA/KK/QQ/AK, no fancy bluffs/squeezes/3 betting because you feel like it.

I agree with you that you should have a linear pure value 3-bet range if the opponents are loose and call 3-bets often, but this is a little too tight and leaves money on the table.

At least add these hands (especially in position):

 

[monkeytilter]

I agree with you that you should have a linear pure value 3-bet range if the opponents are loose and call 3-bets often, but this is a little too tight and leaves money on the table.

At least add these hands (especially in position):

View attachment 379979

Not disagreeing this a solid range, but playing devil's advocate: if we can't isolate and are going 3 way to a flop too often in 3 bet pots what are we planning to do post flop with TT 99 AQ and AJ? It sounds like we have very little fold equity vs these villains so would these not just be better as flats pre? Why bloat a pot we can only win by making a strong value hand.

 

[chump39]

Take AJs out? I'm playing scared now. Any advice to reset the mind?
Though to be fair I started with about $30 in October last year when to $155 in January, and I'm now on $64. My EV has always been about 20% more.
So it's not like I'm pouring money away.

BB has is the one who calls 3bets at 52%, and is the only winning player I can find. See picture

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD 2 Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem 0.05(BB)
MP ($4) [VPIP: 31.3% | PFR: 18.1% | AGG: 32.3% | Hands: 1762]
CO ($2.60) [VPIP: 37.5% | PFR: 25% | AGG: 44% | Hands: 112]
BTN ($5.50) [VPIP: 50.2% | PFR: 2.4% | AGG: 37.6% | Flop Agg: 32.4% | Turn Agg: 34.8% | 3Bet: 1.4% | 4Bet: 0% | Hands: 336]
HERO ($5) [VPIP: 18.6% | PFR: 13.4% | AGG: 36.4% | Flop Agg: 42.5% | Turn Agg: 33.5% | 3Bet: 4.8% | 4Bet: 4.1% | Hands: 3096]
BB ($4.31) [VPIP: 31.2% | PFR: 20.6% | AGG: 27.9% | Flop Agg: 24.1% | Turn Agg: 25.5% | 3Bet: 10% | 4Bet: 10.1% | Cold Call: 20.6% | Hands: 9096]
UTG ($8.70) [VPIP: 22.4% | PFR: 10.2% | AGG: 42.3% | Hands: 2896]
UTG_1 ($6.10) [VPIP: 19.2% | PFR: 15.8% | AGG: 36.8% | Hands: 4688]

Dealt to Hero: J:club: A:club:

UTG Folds, UTG_1 Folds, MP Folds, CO Calls $0.05, BTN Calls $0.05, HERO Raises To $0.20, BB Calls $0.15, CO Folds, BTN Calls $0.15

Hero SPR on Flop: [6.32 effective]
Flop ($0.65): 7:club: J:spade: A:heart:
HERO Bets $0.62 (Rem. Stack: $4.18), BB Calls $0.62 (Rem. Stack: $3.49), BTN Calls $0.62 (Rem. Stack: $4.68)

Turn ($2.51): 7:club: J:spade: A:heart: Q:heart:
HERO Bets $1.19 (Rem. Stack: $2.99), BB Raises To $3.49 (allin), BTN Folds, HERO Folds

[spoil]
BB wins: $4.76
[/spoil]

 

[monkeytilter]

Am I reading that graph right? Is this a sample of less than 10,000 hands? That would be a small sample. Looks like villain has been break even for the last 3000 hands? Is rake deducted? If not, this player could well be losing and not beating the rake currently. Their play style may have altered since their early rise or they are just running closer to their expected EV after a lucky start.

Looking at their stats, they are on the looser side but not a maniac. If they have an PFR of 20% and call 50% to 3 bets that gives them a 10% range defending in 3 bet pots, not super strong but playable especially if they have position. Be careful with their 'call 3 bet stat'. They may just have had a card rush and don't actually call anything like that percentage generally. I'm guessing they play reasonably well post flop and that's what counts in the long run, getting value without being spewy and being able to find the correct folds.

You ask about dropping AJ as example, isn't this playing scared?
Well I assume your tracker can let you look at the profitability of you 3 betting AJ . What is your EV in those pots? Winning? Losing?
Easy answer.

 

[monkeytilter]

Had a quick look at the hand you posted. It doesn't really relate to your main post. You raised, got two callers in a single raised pot. Not a terrible situation at all, not exactly a limp and call fest!

The hand doesn't give us much information about the villain. He could just have hit his straight. The question is, does constantly bomb the turn like this? You may have to start looking him up, even if it means losing a pot to see what he's doing. You need to watch every hand he shows down and note how he played that hand. This includes pots you aren't directly involved in - very important.

 

[pentazepam]

Not disagreeing this a solid range, but playing devil's advocate: if we can't isolate and are going 3 way to a flop too often in 3 bet pots what are we planning to do post flop with TT 99 AQ and AJ? It sounds like we have very little fold equity vs these villains so would these not just be better as flats pre? Why bloat a pot we can only win by making a strong value hand.

Against tight players, GTO-players, and good players, I can agree that just calling with TT, 99, and AJs are correct, especially multiway.

But against people that call 3-bets with all kind of shit - as they often do at the lowest stakes - you can widen your 3-bet linear range and cut out all the bluffs. At least until they start to adapt and fold (or 4-bet).

As long as your range is better than the opponents' calling ranges you could still 3-bet for pure value, and you will still win money in the long run.

It becomes a little more difficult for a beginner, and you have to give up more pots if they can't be bluffed often. BUT then you hit, you win such big pots that it makes up for all the times you miss.

TT and 99 are huge winners in multiway pots at the lower stakes (if you hit a set it's often top set and sometimes they are overpairs).

With AQ and AJ, the suited ones can of course give you a flush over flush but if they call with all kinds of Ax you almost always have the best kicker if you get top pair.

You don't have to win every pot. As long as the hands win more than they lose, they should be played - and the top hands of your range 3-betted if they call them.

When it comes to lower pairs, suited AXs and suited connectors, I prefer just calling in most cases (especially in position and if the pot seems to be multiway).

But all high (and middle) pairs, most suited broadways, AK and AQ are just too good not to 3-bet in almost any game at lower levels against bad players.

You must of course tighten up and just call more if the original raiser is in early position and especially if he is tight or play GTO.

Against good or tight players, I can agree that we can just call with more hands if we don't want to get ourselves in difficult situations, and you also have to fold some good hands to a 4-bet - but in this case, we seem to be up against loose players that call too much both pre-flop and post flop.

And just to repeat: against GTO players and tight players or players that fold or 4-bet I would probably just call with TT, 99, and AJs multiway.

 

[eetenor]

Hi
Playing 0.2/0.5 Coinpoker

Note most tables have an average vpip% 15-30 3bet% 5-25.
But the players usually have a 3bet call of over 50%!

I'm under the UTG2 with Premium hand and open raise 3bb I'll get 4 callers.
If I do the same but open 9bb/15bb/25bb I'll still get at least 2 callers.

When facing a bet pre-flop, I can 3bet 3x/5x/10 their bet and get 2 callers.

I go to the flop 3 ways with AK QQ JJ, I'm facing sets, 2 pair, straight and flush draws.

When I get to the river I can never value bet as I'm usually facing an all in and lose.

I searched my Poker tracker for winning players and only found one player. He had a 3bet call of 58%

So should I just go back to 3bb opening and 3x their bet as a 3bet? Or any other Ideas

The data you have included in the post indicates a big card bias----AA is a strong hand but on 3 way rivers is seldom the winning hand without improving.. Improving AA KK QQ is low frequency- therefore we are folding not calling most often vs standard V who only get all-in with 2 pair plus on rivers-
If your V are willing to call 15x opens creating a 45bb pot leaving you with 85bb stack --they will also call shoves on the flop--on dry unconnected boards with few draws use a shoving strategy. If they fold great if not you will have 67% equity minimum 3 way vs everything but the sets.

On connected boards shut down do not build pots.

 

[monkeytilter]

Against tight players, GTO-players, and good players, I can agree that just calling with TT, 99, and AJs are correct, especially multiway.

But against people that call 3-bets with all kind of shit - as they often do at the lowest stakes - you can widen your 3-bet linear range and cut out all the bluffs. At least until they start to adapt and fold (or 4-bet).

As long as your range is better than the opponents' calling ranges you could still 3-bet for pure value, and you will still win money in the long run.

It becomes a little more difficult for a beginner, and you have to give up more pots if they can't be bluffed often. BUT then you hit, you win such big pots that it makes up for all the times you miss.

TT and 99 are huge winners in multiway pots at the lower stakes (if you hit a set it's often top set and sometimes they are overpairs).

With AQ and AJ, the suited ones can of course give you a flush over flush but if they call with all kinds of Ax you almost always have the best kicker if you get top pair.

You don't have to win every pot. As long as the hands win more than they lose, they should be played - and the top hands of your range 3-betted if they call them.

When it comes to lower pairs, suited AXs and suited connectors, I prefer just calling in most cases (especially in position and if the pot seems to be multiway).

But all high (and middle) pairs, most suited broadways, AK and AQ are just too good not to 3-bet in almost any game at lower levels against bad players.

You must of course tighten up and just call more if the original raiser is in early position and especially if he is tight or play GTO.

Against good or tight players, I can agree that we can just call with more hands if we don't want to get ourselves in difficult situations, and you also have to fold some good hands to a 4-bet - but in this case, we seem to be up against loose players that call too much both pre-flop and post flop.

And just to repeat: against GTO players and tight players or players that fold or 4-bet I would probably just call with TT, 99, and AJs multiway.

I think your advice is going to leave OP in trouble, if they are struggling to beat their game with premo hands in 3 bet pots then 99 TT will be even more of a struggle for them. The problem being lack of clarity post flop, is he ahead/behind? They function better in single raised pots if constantly going multiway, with the intention of hitting a set and playing a big pot or a small one if not.

Rethinking on AJ AQ you are correct, OP will dominate villains raggy Ax more times than not and it's obvious if he's hit top pair or not on Axx so no problem there. Having said that OP managed to get into trouble with AJ as a 3 bet and that was in position! I know this is a sample of one (and an odd hand at that), but as single raised pot this would have most likely have worked out well for hero😜

Again I hope OP can look in his database and determine if these are profitable 3 bets hands for him, they still need to be played correctly post flop. Maybe drop any losers for now as part of your 'reset'. Get back on a winning trend then expand the ranges from there as the post flop skill/confidence increases.

 

[chump39]

Thanks for all the advice!
What do you think about going all in on the flop? The only realistic better hand and on the flop is pocket 77, but that would just be a cooler.
I think they would fold and I'd win a small pot. Which might improve my mindset. However, I'm leaving value behind.

 

[Bhargav]

only play good hands, open raise with them and then check or flat calling try to reach river if your cards are well connected or fold. dont raise the pots yourself. play only suited premium cards and high pairs as suggested by @pentazepam . this will slow the tempo of the game i guess. all in on the flop will not help you much(if it goes multiway you lose), if you think you have very good chance of having nuts by the river then small value bets till the river then all in. you can risk all in with one caller if you can do nothing, but try to avoid all in as much as possible.

 

[chump39]

only play good hands, open raise with them and then check or flat calling try to reach river if your cards are well connected or fold. dont raise the pots yourself. play only suited premium cards and high pairs as suggested by @pentazepam . this will slow the tempo of the game i guess. all in on the flop will not help you much(if it goes multiway you lose), if you think you have very good chance of having nuts by the river then small value bets till the river then all in. you can risk all in with one caller if you can do nothing, but try to avoid all in as much as possible.

Do you mean in the short term? This seems like a tight passive way to play rather than tight aggressive.
If CO opens 3/BB and I have AK on the BTN should I just call?

 

[Bhargav]

yes if the table is aggressive, you should play tight(there is no reason to inflate an already good pot). you should play aggressive when the table is dull/tight.

 

[Sparta77]

igen, ha agresszív az asztal, akkor szorosan kell játszani (nincs ok arra, hogy felfújja az amúgy is jó potot). agresszíven kell játszania, ha az asztal unalmas/szoros.

Yeah, that's a good tactic.

 

[eetenor]

Thanks for all the advice!
What do you think about going all in on the flop? The only realistic better hand and on the flop is pocket 77, but that would just be a cooler.
I think they would fold and I'd win a small pot. Which might improve my mindset. However, I'm leaving value behind.

I am concerned with your mindset. Our mindset should be how to win the most money we can but you state above winning a small pot would improve your mindset. That indicates that your focus is on winning hands when you have big cards like AA KK--that is card bias based on preflop hand strength. We want to be focusing on winning big pots when those hands hit flops strongly and expecting to abandon those hands when they do not, in multiway spots which will be very often.