Learning Poker Together Part 2: Thoughts on Solvers - Are they worth it for micro & low stakes?

[Luvepoker]

For Part 2 of my Learning Poker Together Series, I'd like to talk about poker solvers. We've all heard the comments that a solver shows how to play against a person who was playing like a solver or perfect poker. We also know that even the top pros don't play perfectly. So I have some questions...

Question 1: What are your thoughts on using a poker solver?

Question 2: Is it worth using a solver in playing micro-stakes or lower stakes poker games?

Question 3: Is it worth the cost to use or buy a solver at micro-stakes or in low stakes poker games?

Question 4: If you use the solver, do you feel it is helping your game play and making you a better player?

Question 5: If you use a solver, is it worth the cost to you?

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Click here to find a list of all the threads in my Learning Poker Together Series: Learning Poker Together Series: Helping each other improve in playing poker

 

[Luvepoker]

Here are my thoughts on the questions above.

1) If you sat down for a live poker tournament and the player right next to you fold it every single hand but aces and kings what would you do when he was in the big line and you were small blind and I folded to you. If you ran into a player like this you could raise any two if he's just folding and made one. Yet there's not a single chart out there that says that's what you should do. It's the same thing with the solver. When we play poker we have to adjust to the player or players who are against. If a solver tells you to raise it doesn't mean you have to raise every single time but to adjust to the player. If a solver says you should bluff a certain hand every time the button raises, if he calls 100% of the time or is playing differently then the solver would suggest the button to play you need to adjust to that player not blindly follow solver. What made solvers so good is it helps you better understand the depth of a game. As I started using solvers I was a bit shocked on how they showed me the play what when I thought of the theory behind what it was telling me to do it made sense to actually change the way I was playing to a more solver way of playing when the time was right.

2) I believe it is worth using but if you do not adjust to the players that you're against at those levels I am sure solver will not help you. If you open up a solver to play everything and do exactly what it says I believe you would loose a lot.

3) Sadly I don't believe it is worth the cost at the lower stakes maybe a mid stakes player it would be worth the money but it's not for the lower stakes you just can't make enough to make it worth your time and money. This said if you ever plan to move up in the game even though it may be a losing proposition now long term it'll make you a better player faster and when you a lot more money as you move up.

4) I do use one and it is making me a much better player much faster than if I didn't use it. I remember the first time I was using it and working on my post flop game. I was trying different flaps just to see what would happen and what would be the most recommended way to play a hand. I remember how shocked I was when I changed one card just one spot. How big of a difference is taking that 5 and making it a four of the same suite? The first time I saw the solver telling me a drastic change in the play threw me off. But as I thought onto it and ask my coach for some help I realized that that one card was actually a very big change in the texture of the flop and the future play for that hand. It was that moment in time that made me realize how valuable this tool could be but it also opened up my mind two fake word globally on every single hand and flop turn and river.

5) As I've said before I hope to do more in the game of poker. It's not about how much it helps me make money today what if it helps me complete my long term goal of winning that one tournament and getting that picture it is very much worth it to me. Is it worth it to me hell yeah.

 

[fundiver199]

1. They obviously calculate the GTO strategy, which is the strategy, where nobody win or lose, if everyone follow it. So GTO is mainly a defensive strategy, which goal is to not lose to good players.

2. Micro stakes no. Low stakes maybe. Mid stakes you probably have to in order to compete. You should be able to beat micro stakes without using advanced software, and then you will also have the bankroll to play low stakes. Which is then the time, where you might consider investing in software to improve your game further.

3. Cant really say, since I never did it myself. Maybe I am missing out on something. But playing a high percentage of SnGs I have chosen to spend my money on ICMizer instead. This is also software, which calculate the GTO strategy, but it does so only for preflop push/fold spots and taking exact stack sizes and payouts into account, which solvers do not. So ICMizer is better for its exact purpose but cant help with anything else.

4. I definitely think, solvers can help us improve our game especially if we try to understand, why the solver does, what it does, rather than try to memorize its exact ranges.

5. Since I did not pay yet, clearly yes.

 

[IRINA70]

Previously, when I played cash, I used Hold'em Manager until PS banned its use. Then I thought - ok, if I need help from software to see what players I'm dealing with at the table, then what kind of player am I if I don't understand the actions of others and am not able to adapt to them in the game without outside help. In a live game, only the ability to read players and your own knowledge and skills can help. Probably, I should have studied something like GTO wizard to better understand the basic game as such, but for now I'm studying books on tournament poker.

 

[Luvepoker]

2. Micro stakes no. Low stakes maybe. Mid stakes you probably have to in order to compete. You should be able to beat micro stakes without using advanced software, and then you will also have the bankroll to play low stakes. Which is then the time, where you might consider investing in software to improve your game further.

I actually do find is useful in micro stakes and low stakes but agree you should be able to beat them without it. I would not tell anyone playing at or someone who does not desire to more up to use in but if your goal is to do that it's really been useful.

Previously, when I played cash, I used Hold'em Manager until PS banned its use. Then I thought - ok, if I need help from software to see what players I'm dealing with at the table, then what kind of player am I if I don't understand the actions of others and am not able to adapt to them in the game without outside help. In a live game, only the ability to read players and your own knowledge and skills can help. Probably, I should have studied something like GTO wizard to better understand the basic game as such, but for now I'm studying books on tournament poker.

I actually don't use software when I play but I wish the site I used allowed me to gather my own information. I actually do use GTO wizard and love it. Is it worth the cost? For what game I play it's not but it's about what I hope to achieve. I think how your studying is just fine if you're happy. Thats how i started and what i did for years to be honest.

 

[fundiver199]

Previously, when I played cash, I used Hold'em Manager until PS banned its use.

Trackers are still allowed on pokerstars, but some older versions are banned, so you just need to get a current version. And when I said "advanced software", I meant solvers and other programs calculating GTO solutions. I was not talking about trackers, which in my opinion are a good investment for all serious poker players, even those playing in the micros. Trackers are not only usefull for the HUD but also for analysing your game away from the tables.

 

[IRINA70]

Trackers are still allowed on PokerStars, but some older versions are banned, so you just need to get a current version. And when I said "advanced software", I meant solvers and other programs calculating GTO solutions. I was not talking about trackers, which in my opinion are a good investment for all serious poker players, even those playing in the micros. Trackers are not only usefull for the HUD but also for analysing your game away from the tables.

Thanks, I'll try to find some that allowed on PS. I have PokerStrategy Equilab and I can use it only when poker client is closed. Is it the same thing as GTO calculator?

 

[Goggelheimer]

Thanks, I'll try to find some that allowed on PS. I have PokerStrategy Equilab and I can use it only when poker client is closed. Is it the same thing as GTO calculator?

Allowed Trackers for PokerStars are, Pokertracker 4(PT4), HoldemManager 3(HM3), DriveHud 2(DH2), Hand2Note 3(H2N3) and Hand2Note 4(H2N4) and 1 or 2 more.
PT4, HM3, DH2 and exist only as payware (with yearly subscriptions)all 3 have a trial period. H2N3 exists as a very limited free to use and as yearly subscription type (too expensive IMO), H2N4 is still under development so called beta and free until the full version will be released. Main drawback for the Hand2Note ones is that you can not edit tournament results(in case of GG taxation of winnings needed) and H2N3 does not work for GG Poker natively, H2N4 works with GG Poker but with the same non editable results. All are not allowed to be running when the GG-Poker client is open, so they can only be used for tracking results afterward, so they are very limited for GG Poker, also because Hand histories from GG Poker are anonymized.
Mostly all of them have features that will not work on PokerStars and will be disabled automatically.
I hope this helps.
Use the trial period. HM3 is not like HM2. The most powerful is IMO PT4.

 

[Goggelheimer]

Thanks, I'll try to find some that allowed on PS. I have PokerStrategy Equilab and I can use it only when poker client is closed. Is it the same thing as GTO calculator?

Sorry, I forgot the question about GTO calculators.
No equilab is not a GTO calculator.
GTO Calculators are GTO wizard, extremely expensive(subscrption model), Holdem resources calculator (also subscrition model) also not very cheap, and I think GTO+ (one time fee) for calculations you need a relatively strong computer Intel I5 or better. I forgot to mention Pio Solver. But there may be others.

 

[fundiver199]

No equilab is not a GTO calculator.

To elaborate on this Equilab is an equity calculator. The program can not tell you the game theory optimal way to play a hand. But it can tell you, how much equity you have against a presumed range. Its not allowed to have Equilab open, while the PokerStars client is open, which has cost me a few warning, when I had done off the table study with Equilab and forgot to shut it down. I actually find this is a bit silly, because in my opinion using Equilab during a hand can not give anyone a significant advantage. But of course sites need to draw a line somewhere, and here PokerStars just got it slightly wrong in my opinion

 

[antonis32123]

I am again at solvers . All these helping software should be banned . The poker rooms have the technologies to do so . But they do t want to .

Especially for micros or nano stakes it's ridiculous to need a silver . If that's the case the fun players , the recreational player should never play online poker . Which is not far from the truth .

At live games my answer could be different . To use them to study on private . Not that I would like it , just saying . ...

 

[Goggelheimer]

I am again at solvers . All these helping software should be banned . The poker rooms have the technologies to do so . But they do t want to .

Especially for micros or nano stakes it's ridiculous to need a silver . If that's the case the fun players , the recreational player should never play online poker . Which is not far from the truth .

At live games my answer could be different . To use them to study on private . Not that I would like it , just saying . ..

Most solvers are forbidden when running the poker room software(GG Poker forbids all helping software even sheets with static ranges, PokerStars has a non updated list(2020) of such software and so do other pokerrooms have), or the features are disabled. You risk your bankroll by using such tools during play. partypoker closes the client even if you have such tools installed on your PC, they search your PC's programs list.

Use of GTO solvers is mainly to work on special spots in your game after the tournament, to fix some leaks.

GTO is not always the appropriate way to play a hand.

I think the wsop main event 2024 win should be taken away from the so-called winner if he used external material like ranges or a direct trainer advice.

If one of the photos I have seen is no fake they watched a range for making a decision. Pro's should be aware of ranges without external advice.

 

[Luvepoker]

Most solvers are forbidden when running the poker room software(GG Poker forbids all helping software even sheets with static ranges, PokerStars has a non updated list(2020) of such software and so do other pokerrooms have), or the features are disabled. You risk your bankroll by using such tools during play. PartyPoker closes the client even if you have such tools installed on your PC, they search your PC's programs list.

Use of GTO solvers is mainly to work on special spots in your game after the tournament, to fix some leaks.

GTO is not always the appropriate way to play a hand.

I think the WSOP main event 2024 win should be taken away from the so-called winner if he used external material like ranges or a direct trainer advice.

If one of the photos I have seen is no fake they watched a range for making a decision. Pro's should be aware of ranges without external advice.

Your right. All solvers are banned online when playing. You would risk it all just opening one. They do look for them and are good tracing down them if your playing and using one. I did not realize equity lab was open once when I signed into poker stars for a league game. The game had not even started yet and I got the warning from poker stars next time i face suspension.

GTO is rarely the right way to play a hand. Its for us to understand how to play the hand correctly but we always need to adjust to the player you're against never the GTO theory. If the guy is a calling station you never need to bluff no matter what the solver says would be correct.

Im really torn on what happened at the final 2. The WSOP saw this and did not disqualify him. Hard to do it now whan it was there on TV. The problem is many who dont play poker have hear about the cheating of the final 2. Not a good look for poker.

The photo is not fake I believe. Very sad situation to be honest.

 

[ROYALROAD]

It's probably best not to use software that is banned by poker houses.
I'm sure new software will be released one after another.

 

[Luvepoker]

It's probably best not to use software that is banned by poker houses.
I'm sure new software will be released one after another.

I would never do that as well. You only should use the software for training purposes when not playing poker.

 

[Station_Master]

Solvers are for studying away from the table, not using whilst playing.

It's certainly worth studying away from the table if you want to improve your game, but don't try to copy solver output as your opponents will be playing differently to the GTO response.

 

[christovam]

I don't use solvers, although I know their benefits, but in response to the questions I say:

1 - Solvers take the magic out of innate human thinking, that effort that the player has to make to arrive at good decisions. This makes the game more mechanical.

2 - For low stakes, it's not worth it, as those who participate in low buy-ins tend to exaggerate, as they have less risk, so they don't take into account calculations and odds.

3 - Definitely not, as they are expensive for low buy-ins.

4 - I don't use them.

5 - Not me.

 

[odonob]

I prefer a more gut instinct approach to poker. I find it more ‘human’ and more in the spirit of the game. Number crunching Apps are a bit soulless and desperate. Not sure how the world series of poker allowed the winner to consult his friend with a laptop on the rail, very strange.

 

[A kiravio]

For Part 2 of my Learning Poker Together Series, I'd like to talk about poker solvers. We've all heard the comments that a solver shows how to play against a person who was playing like a solver or perfect poker. We also know that even the top pros don't play perfectly. So I have some questions...

Question 1: What are your thoughts on using a poker solver?

Question 2: Is it worth using a solver in playing micro-stakes or lower stakes poker games?

Question 3: Is it worth the cost to use or buy a solver at micro-stakes or in low stakes poker games?

Question 4: If you use the solver, do you feel it is helping your game play and making you a better player?

Question 5: If you use a solver, is it worth the cost to you?

---

Click here to find a list of all the threads in my Learning Poker Together Series: Learning Poker Together Series: Helping each other improve in playing poker

1,2,3,4: I'm very curious how we'll do after we get used to this. I think it should be consulted from time to time to show off but our true value is without any accessories, only with what we have learned over time.

 

[Mr.$t0k]

I think that solvers are useful for learning game strategy and we can use them for training. for micro limits, you can learn at least preflop strategies, it will be good, but if you are a player of medium and high limits, then I think it makes sense to pay for a solver