Learning Poker Together Part 1: Playing of a Hand

[Luvepoker]

For Part 1 in my Learning Poker Together Series I'm gonna use a hand that I saw played last night. Yes it was a hand I played and it's not about whether I won or lost.

Here's the hand:
This was a 6-max tournament 13 left and this is a Turbo event. The hijack is not a very great player. He's a bit too loose and from what I could see can fold when he's behind. We are 22 big blinds deep when this hand is played. He has me out shipped by about 1/4 big blind.
So the hijack opens to two big lines the folds to me and the cut off with pocket sevens. I'm not deep enough to set mine the pocket sevens versus this player seems too strong to just fold. I jam all in and it folds back to him. He timed out and goes into his time bank for about 25 seconds before he decides to call with queen 10 office suit.

The hand result does not matter to me at this time but I know some people will ask yes I lost the hand and was out.


So here are the questions we should discuss.

#1 What's your thought and opinion on the 22 big blind three back here?

#2 What do you think of this call here? What would have you done here?

#3 This is a question I would ask no matter what but it's funnier to tell you what happened after the hand was over. He typed into the chat ” I knew he had nothing.” So what do you think he was thinking and what hands do you think he put me on?

The hand result does not matter to me at this time but I know some people will ask yes I lost the hand and was out.

---

Click here to find a list of all the threads in my Learning Poker Together Series: Learning Poker Together Series: Helping each other improve in playing poker

 

[Luvepoker]

Answer 1. I still like my play here. The problem is if I set mine and don't hit a set there's most likely going to be two if not three over card he could have a worse pair he could have just an ace high on the flat and I would probably need the fold no matter what. Had I won this hand I would have had a top four or five stack with 12 left.

Answer 2. Once he timed out and was on his bank time I knew his hand was pretty weak. With pocket sevens I'm OK if he calls put a fold is preferable since it's probably a flip. I was absolutely shocked that he called with that hand my image was a bit tighter based on what he had seen. I had not shown down any we cans or Bluffs. If I was him I would have been very unhappy but I would have folded queen 10 is just too dominated by the range of hands I would be pushing like this.

Answer 3, it's hard to say what he was putting me on and what he was thinking. I knew he could fold so we had to be doing some first level thinking at the minimum and as I said I don't think he was a very good player. Considering the ICM implications at this time I doubt he was putting me on hands but I found it interesting that he thought he actually knew I had nothing. To be honest I don't think he was putting me on a range at all and just think he was thinking he is bluffing by doing this.

 

[rhoudini]

Hey @Luvepoker !! Let me try to enhance the discussion and maybe contribute for us to get better together. Let's start by making some considerations.

First, we are almost with two tables left, therefore, very close to the final table. ICM can't be ignored here. Despite it is tough to estimate ICM with 13 left (and I don't have the information about the total field size), we can infer that our range is affected -- in fact, restricted -- due to ICM.

Second, the more we judge to have an edge over the average player in the field, but especially over the players at your table, the more we should avoid marginal decisions: this is the concept of future game, and it should impact our decisions in the present.

Now let's get into the hand. You see a beautiful hand like 77 and you want to make something out of it vs. the bad player. As you said, you don't have the proper odds to set mine, so let's consider some options. If you flat call, you open the door for a squeeze, and of course, how likely it is to play a heads-up pot in position vs. the bad guy? Very unlikely especially in micro stakes, because big blind is getting a very cheap price, and your hand does not play well post-flop multiway. Your stack does not help too much to risk flatting too much only to see a flop vs. a bad player.

Let's suppose you are not happy with flatting, and you want to decide between 3-bet or fold. Let's think about 3-betting. What size to use? Eff. stack is right in the middle of that zone where we start to 3-bet shove (20 to 25 BBs).

Considering the moment of the tournament, what about 3-betting to 5 BB or even 5.5 BB with some hands? I think it can be very effective! Maybe much more that having only one size that would be the shove. You can add the majority of your 3-bet hands to this size, especially Ax and Kx hands that block 4-bet shoves, suited or not, and some pocket pairs. If your opponent is calling too much, it means that they will miss too much too, and proper c-bets will usually take the pot uncontested a lot of the time! If you get 4-bet, you can fold and still play your 15 or 16 BBs.

But if you think that this guy will call too much a big shove like he did, shove size is perfect! However, you have to consider doing this with 77 based on the two factors mentioned above:

1. The moment of the tournament and ICM implications;
2. Future game: we can have a lot of better spots vs. him;

Maybe most important, consider the hands that are calling you and which hands he will fold.

Assume that he opens this range: 22+ Ax K7s+ K8o+ Q8s+ Q9o+ J9+ T9s 87s 76s 65s 54s (34.5%)
Let's be honest and assume he calls your shove with any pocket pair and any broadways (17.9%).
Half of the time he will fold (and you win the pot) and in the other half you are almost flipping vs. the entire range!

Maybe from a pure ChipEV perspective this shove is good, especially if you consider that he will fold more. But what hands will he fold? He would probably start folding the lower pocket pairs (this is a double-edge sword: you get more folds, but you get the hands you are beating to fold).

The reality will be quite different tough: usually, when you are called, you are behind (or flipping), and what is even worse: there are still 3 players to see their cards, and they can have a strong hand too! That should make your range much more tighter!!

If you are still going to 3-bet shove, I think you should prefer hands that block his calling range (more folds to you) and that have more equity when called, maybe this? 99+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, ATo+, KTo+.
Again your equity is not that superior, 52% vs 48%, but now you should get more folds, or even to be dominating most of his range, considering that he should not call lowest pocket pairs.

 

[Luvepoker]

Hey @rhoudini . Now this is exactly what I had hoped for. 1st of all great post brother.

The concept of Future game is fairly new to me but has been slowly being added to my game. As I get better at that part it will be a much better process for my game.

Now for the hand. 77 is at 23BB deep is a tough spot to play. You’re just getting to deep to shove like I did. Now I do agree 3 betting to 5BB has a ton of value and I did think of doing that but this player is more of the reason I did do it. The table was playing tighter, and overfolding and this player was actually opening more than you had shown. Not too badly but was playing more of a button opening range than HJ. He did not seem to be positioanly aware and had raise 86o a few hands earlier. The main reason I went with the jam was for this added reason. He was over folding to the all in plays. 77 was actually at the bottom of the jamming range to be honest. Now as I said I am adding the 3bet to 5BB to my play but this guy was oddly calling everything that was not an all in. Again, why I jammed. Another reason was my table image was tight enough to him he would fold possible more than normal to my raise. My assumption may have been wrong this time for sure.

That said I do agree that in this situation it would have been a better play to raise to 5BB and fold if needed to if not for how I was reading the table at that moment.

Now I see I made a small error in my post and will add that detail to my 1st post but I do want to ask your thoughts with this added detail. This was a Turbo event. 5-minute blinds do fly by and would affect this hand. If I had raised folded, I would have had 17BB or so. I would have hit the next level before the next BB or in the BB and my stack would have been closer to 11 or 12BB. Would this change the way you're would have played the hand?

I do like the way you think here. Your better at it than I am at this time but overall, you and I are on the same page with this hand. I do have another question for you on this but that can wait for another day and post.

 

[rhoudini]

Now this is exactly what I had hoped for. 1st of all great post brother.

Your idea for a series of posts is great, if I think I can contribute at least to start the discussion, I will be always very happy to be here participating and learning with you. I really try to support who is serious about the game.

The table was playing tighter, and overfolding and this player was actually opening more than you had shown. Not too badly but was playing more of a button opening range than HJ.

With this extra information, I really start to like the 77 shove. Again, ICM is a big factor, but it can't keep us from making bold moves like this in a deep run. I still prefer some bigger pairs and broadways for the blocking effect, but again, 77 starts to look decent. From a ChipEV perspective, I think it is very clear 3-bet shove. In this situation, I still like this size with hands like 77-JJ, maybe good aces like AT+. I think I prefer the 5~5.5 BB size with the broadways, or weaker Ax (as 3-bet folds). See that in the shove situation I don't mention bluffs. If we are going to exploit such a player, it makes no sense to think too much about bluffs or being balanced, but we need to keep a condensed linear range. But in the smaller 3-bet, yes, if we make room for a fold, we gotta have some "bluffs" (so we can fold, but also pick the pot when he folds), and some "traps" like QQ+ that will play very nice vs. him in position when he calls too.

This was a Turbo event. 5-minute blinds do fly by and would affect this hand. If I had raised folded, I would have had 17BB or so. I would have hit the next level before the next BB or in the BB and my stack would have been closer to 11 or 12BB.

I think I would go in the opposite direction. In turbos, 17 BB sometimes is the stack of a chip leader, depending on the stage of the tournament. See that there is still a lot of game in these shorter stacks. Of course, when time comes, you need to push it and take the risk, but for me, anything above 15 BB in a turbo is still quite a lot (especially close to the end). In hypers, sometimes everybody has 3 to 5 BB and the tension is huge, but we need to keep calm and evaluate each situation. Of course in such an extreme situation, variance rises to the roof, but we should keep following the good principles. But the fact of being a turbo or a hyper would not change the way I'd play the hand.

That's actually another good point. Sometimes, when decisions are close, like if we precisely knew that folding or 3-bet shove had the same EV, we can happily take the path of less variance (which is folding) and wait for better spots. If I had access to Hold'em Resources, that would be a great spot to run an ICM simulation.

 

[fundiver199]

1. Jamming 77 is standard in this spot without reads. The exact jamming range will depend on payouts and other players stack sizes and can be calculated with a program like ICMizer.

2. Its a terrible call with QT.

3. His chat tell you, he made a tilted call. He did not want to be "pushed around", and therefore his inner sheriff came up. This is usefull information, because had you known, he would call far to wide, you could have taken another line and either called preflop in position or even folded. You say, you were to short to setmine, and that is true. But 77 is strong enough to sometimes take it to showdown unimproved.

Conclusion
The main lesson of the hand is one, which Daniel Negreanu has described as "never rely on someone, you dont know, to be good enough to fold for your tournament life." But with that being said I would expect the vast majority of players to play somewhat correct in a spot like this. And from your point of view busting in 13. place is not a disaster, since the big payjumps are still far away. So I think, its mostly a case of "shit happens". You ran into a calling station and probably did not have any realistic way of knowing, that he would react to your shove this way. So I would just laugh it off and buy into another tournament.

 

[Luvepoker]

Your idea for a series of posts is great, if I think I can contribute at least to start the discussion, I will be always very happy to be here participating and learning with you. I really try to support who is serious about the game.

Thank you for the kind words and thank you for the support. Your response have been really amazining.

With this extra information, I really start to like the 77 shove. Again, ICM is a big factor, but it can't keep us from making bold moves like this in a deep run. I still prefer some bigger pairs and broadways for the blocking effect, but again, 77 starts to look decent. From a ChipEV perspective, I think it is very clear 3-bet shove. In this situation, I still like this size with hands like 77-JJ, maybe good aces like AT+. I think I prefer the 5~5.5 BB size with the broadways, or weaker Ax (as 3-bet folds). See that in the shove situation I don't mention bluffs. If we are going to exploit such a player, it makes no sense to think too much about bluffs or being balanced, but we need to keep a condensed linear range. But in the smaller 3-bet, yes, if we make room for a fold, we gotta have some "bluffs" (so we can fold, but also pick the pot when he folds), and some "traps" like QQ+ that will play very nice vs. him in position when he calls too.

I figured this would adjust your thoughts to the play. Just wish I had mentioned it in the 1st place. I do actually have traps in my play too. I do need to really add the smaller 3 bets as you said to my game. I will get there someday I am sure.

I think I would go in the opposite direction. In turbos, 17 BB sometimes is the stack of a chip leader, depending on the stage of the tournament. See that there is still a lot of game in these shorter stacks. Of course, when time comes, you need to push it and take the risk, but for me, anything above 15 BB in a turbo is still quite a lot (especially close to the end). In hypers, sometimes everybody has 3 to 5 BB and the tension is huge, but we need to keep calm and evaluate each situation. Of course in such an extreme situation, variance rises to the roof, but we should keep following the good principles. But the fact of being a turbo or a hyper would not change the way I'd play the hand.

That's actually another good point. Sometimes, when decisions are close, like if we precisely knew that folding or 3-bet shove had the same EV, we can happily take the path of less variance (which is folding) and wait for better spots. If I had access to Hold'em Resources, that would be a great spot to run an ICM simulation.

Your right about some turbos getting very shallow. This happens to be one that rarely gets to under 10 or 12BB for some reason. Last time i went deeper and made it to heads up we were both over 40BB deep.

1. Jamming 77 is standard in this spot without reads. The exact jamming range will depend on payouts and other players stack sizes and can be calculated with a program like ICMizer.

2. Its a terrible call with QT.

3. His chat tell you, he made a tilted call. He did not want to be "pushed around", and therefore his inner sheriff came up. This is usefull information, because had you known, he would call far to wide, you could have taken another line and either called preflop in position or even folded. You say, you were to short to setmine, and that is true. But 77 is strong enough to sometimes take it to showdown unimproved.

Conclusion
The main lesson of the hand is one, which Daniel Negreanu has described as "never rely on someone, you dont know, to be good enough to fold for your tournament life." But with that being said I would expect the vast majority of players to play somewhat correct in a spot like this. And from your point of view busting in 13. place is not a disaster, since the big payjumps are still far away. So I think, its mostly a case of "shit happens". You ran into a calling station and probably did not have any realistic way of knowing, that he would react to your shove this way. So I would just laugh it off and buy into another tournament.

Was hoping you would jump into the conversation. Yeah, this is a hand of "basically shit happens" and actually did jump into another game after this one. To be honest he did not come off as a calling station in the time I played with him. He was opening too much, but he folded a lot more than he should have to 3bet jams. I agree with your comment. I think he just made a tilted call.

Your right about 77 being sometime good enough to get to showdown but what is you thought if I had called here? When looking at the solver it was a mix of jams and calls. 90/10. 66 would have been a call. I know the solver would call but is it really a smart play?

 

[fundiver199]

I know the solver would call but is it really a smart play?

I think, its fine, if you are confident in your postflop game. If you feel, you are often struggling a bit postflop with hands, that are mostly bluff catchers, then its better to just push, so that you dont face any complicated decisions later in the hand.

 

[Luvepoker]

I think, its fine, if you are confident in your postflop game. If you feel, you are often struggling a bit postflop with hands, that are mostly bluff catchers, then its better to just push, so that you dont face any complicated decisions later in the hand.

Thanks for answering this one. I am doing good with playing bluff catcher hands. Just flatting without have the correct depth for set mining option is really new for me and still trying to get a better understanding of it. It feels wrong to do it but I think once i understand this option more it will make more sense to me.

 

[Rmi]

I would have played call normally, since your opponent is very loose and will overpay, in an all-in situation, you only get paid hands that dominate you or you go to a flip...

 

[fundiver199]

Just flatting without have the correct depth for set mining option is really new for me and still trying to get a better understanding of it.

The point is, you are not strictly setmining. On flops like AK9 or QJT, you are pretty much just giving up and folding to any pressure. But on others flops like 844 or 953, you can take a bit of heat or try to take it down if checked to. And this is also, why 77 is not the same as 22. On the 953 board 22 also has to pretty much just give up, but 77 can continue and for instance be ahead of a hand like A5, that is betting.

 

[Luvepoker]

The point is, you are not strictly setmining. On flops like AK9 or QJT, you are pretty much just giving up and folding to any pressure. But on others flops like 844 or 953, you can take a bit of heat or try to take it down if checked to. And this is also, why 77 is not the same as 22. On the 953 board 22 also has to pretty much just give up, but 77 can continue and for instance be ahead of a hand like A5, that is betting.

Valid point. The way you wrote that really does make it very understandable. Thank you

 

[steve01991]

Hey @Luvepoker !! Let me try to enhance the discussion and maybe contribute for us to get better together. Let's start by making some considerations.

First, we are almost with two tables left, therefore, very close to the final table. ICM can't be ignored here. Despite it is tough to estimate ICM with 13 left (and I don't have the information about the total field size), we can infer that our range is affected -- in fact, restricted -- due to ICM.

Second, the more we judge to have an edge over the average player in the field, but especially over the players at your table, the more we should avoid marginal decisions: this is the concept of future game, and it should impact our decisions in the present.

Now let's get into the hand. You see a beautiful hand like 77 and you want to make something out of it vs. the bad player. As you said, you don't have the proper odds to set mine, so let's consider some options. If you flat call, you open the door for a squeeze, and of course, how likely it is to play a heads-up pot in position vs. the bad guy? Very unlikely especially in micro stakes, because big blind is getting a very cheap price, and your hand does not play well post-flop multiway. Your stack does not help too much to risk flatting too much only to see a flop vs. a bad player.

Let's suppose you are not happy with flatting, and you want to decide between 3-bet or fold. Let's think about 3-betting. What size to use? Eff. stack is right in the middle of that zone where we start to 3-bet shove (20 to 25 BBs).

Considering the moment of the tournament, what about 3-betting to 5 BB or even 5.5 BB with some hands? I think it can be very effective! Maybe much more that having only one size that would be the shove. You can add the majority of your 3-bet hands to this size, especially Ax and Kx hands that block 4-bet shoves, suited or not, and some pocket pairs. If your opponent is calling too much, it means that they will miss too much too, and proper c-bets will usually take the pot uncontested a lot of the time! If you get 4-bet, you can fold and still play your 15 or 16 BBs.

But if you think that this guy will call too much a big shove like he did, shove size is perfect! However, you have to consider doing this with 77 based on the two factors mentioned above:

1. The moment of the tournament and ICM implications;
2. Future game: we can have a lot of better spots vs. him;

Maybe most important, consider the hands that are calling you and which hands he will fold.

Assume that he opens this range: 22+ Ax K7s+ K8o+ Q8s+ Q9o+ J9+ T9s 87s 76s 65s 54s (34.5%)
Let's be honest and assume he calls your shove with any pocket pair and any broadways (17.9%).
Half of the time he will fold (and you win the pot) and in the other half you are almost flipping vs. the entire range!

Maybe from a pure ChipEV perspective this shove is good, especially if you consider that he will fold more. But what hands will he fold? He would probably start folding the lower pocket pairs (this is a double-edge sword: you get more folds, but you get the hands you are beating to fold).

The reality will be quite different tough: usually, when you are called, you are behind (or flipping), and what is even worse: there are still 3 players to see their cards, and they can have a strong hand too! That should make your range much more tighter!!

If you are still going to 3-bet shove, I think you should prefer hands that block his calling range (more folds to you) and that have more equity when called, maybe this? 99+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, ATo+, KTo+.
Again your equity is not that superior, 52% vs 48%, but now you should get more folds, or even to be dominating most of his range, considering that he should not call lowest pocket pairs.

And this is why i love this site.... i learn so much from more experienced players!

 

[Mr.$t0k]

I think he is quite a weak player and I would probably call or fold as we still have a fairly comfortable position, we can wait for a better hand