How much value is learning Game Theory Optimal (GTO) for a recreational player?
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Depends on your goals. If you are trying to win money, it is valuable to know, what GTO strategy is, so that you can make more informed decisions about deviating from it. Like "usually this hand is a call to a 3-bet from that position, but I think, the population is under 3-betting, so I will fold". Rather than "hmm I think, he probably has it, so I fold". With that being said a more old school approach without the use of solvers as the one presented in CCs 30-day course will take you pretty far in micro and low stakes games.
Matt_Burns88
Legend
Bronze Level
I think there is a misconception about GTO that it is only has value for higher stakes games. We've all heard the "but no one plays like the solvers in my games" argument. Here's the thing though; if you don't know what you're supposed to do from a game theory point of view, how are you supposed to know how you need to adjust to exploit your opponents mistakes?
Having said that, it's not imperative that you learn GTO to win at the lower stakes. Playing a relatively ABC style will achieve decent results and doesn't require anywhere near the study time to understand and implement.
Having said that, it's not imperative that you learn GTO to win at the lower stakes. Playing a relatively ABC style will achieve decent results and doesn't require anywhere near the study time to understand and implement.
YLAN
Sida Nga Taraki
Platinum Level
For recreational players that play micro & low stakes where fishes & donks abound, it may not be worth it to spend a lot of time studying GTO strategies. These players are invincible to GTO. May need to be more flexible & adjust real time to players that play illogically & bluffs a lot.
For mid/ high stakes games & against high level opponents, yes learning GTO could be an edge.
For mid/ high stakes games & against high level opponents, yes learning GTO could be an edge.
iwont20
Legend
Loyaler
It's worth learning if you gonna face good regulars pretty often, so if you're at those stakes- then yes. If you're at the stakes where majority are recreationals, then I wouldn't bother, although it's worth learning some basic concepts about balancing your game and moves, so not to be a complete pray if you land on, let's say, the final table full of sharks 🦈 🦈 🦈 😀
SpanRmonka
Legend
Loyaler
I think its worth learning and understanding the general concepts and some basics, but only to better understand how to better exploit weaker opponents at most of our levels that we play at, NOT to actually try and play perfect GTO poker, but to gain some extra strategic understanding
I would say a great place to start would be Dara O Kearneys book
www.goodreads.com
I would say a great place to start would be Dara O Kearneys book
GTO Poker Simplified: Strategy lessons from the solvers…
Game Theory Optimal (GTO) poker strategy has split the …
Suns of Beaches
The All-in-Rippler
Platinum Level
I think it has a lot of value. It's always good to learn new things 😊 and later when they are no more beginners/recreationals, they can profit from what they have already learnt.
I dont really see any downside in learning it as someone who is interested in Poker.
I dont really see any downside in learning it as someone who is interested in Poker.
najisami
Legend
Loyaler
I would say yes. It's definitely worth learning. But using GTO while playing is another story.
If you're planning to spend time and money learning the optimal theory so you could crush the micros, then you would be dreaming. At stakes where players hate folding and can call 3 and 4 bets with any two cards, your GTO knowledge wouldn't be of any help. Adapting/adjusting to the dynamic of any given table based on focus and observation could be more rewarding in my opinion. That said, your GTO learning could (Somewhat) become more useful as you move up the stakes.
If you're planning to spend time and money learning the optimal theory so you could crush the micros, then you would be dreaming. At stakes where players hate folding and can call 3 and 4 bets with any two cards, your GTO knowledge wouldn't be of any help. Adapting/adjusting to the dynamic of any given table based on focus and observation could be more rewarding in my opinion. That said, your GTO learning could (Somewhat) become more useful as you move up the stakes.
mattiebumpo
Legend
Loyaler
I have been playing poker for a long time but just at the amateur level. I want to improve my game while still focusing on tournament buy-ins $400 and under. I have been studying with some other women players and branching into GTO. Some of my study partners use GTO but adjust it as needed based on their opponents. I am trying to learn some GTO, but it is a struggle. To answer your question, I don't know if it's worth the effort to learn GTO to be more successful, but I will incorporate some GTO into my learning. I hope to be in a better position to answer the question next year!
pentazepam
Legend
Loyaler
You must learn the rules to know when to break the rules.
Not really if you almost always play against bad players (as you should).
Many concepts that GTO has clarified have been understood intuitively by many old-school players.
Like the importance of suited cards pre-flop when playing deep, smaller continuation bets on many flops, and polarizing of river bets.
As others already have stated it can be good to learn the basics of GTO to know where the equilibrium solution for certain situations is.
But don't spend a lot of time studying if it takes time away from playing.
Instead, use the time to find a game with players that are so exploitable that you almost immediately see if they call or fold too much and if they bluff too little or too much.
If you don't find players that do a lot of mistakes, change table.
Not really if you almost always play against bad players (as you should).
Many concepts that GTO has clarified have been understood intuitively by many old-school players.
Like the importance of suited cards pre-flop when playing deep, smaller continuation bets on many flops, and polarizing of river bets.
As others already have stated it can be good to learn the basics of GTO to know where the equilibrium solution for certain situations is.
But don't spend a lot of time studying if it takes time away from playing.
Instead, use the time to find a game with players that are so exploitable that you almost immediately see if they call or fold too much and if they bluff too little or too much.
If you don't find players that do a lot of mistakes, change table.
S3mper
Poker Not Checkers
Loyaler
I recently bought Lucid for 1 month since it has a 30-day money back guarantee (No questions asked) and I was debating with myself if I should create a thread about how I've fiddled with the solver for about a week now and learned absolutely nothing. And unfortunately, the reason is not because my poker knowledge is so vast.
Personally, I fear the problem is that I may just simply be too dumb to solve the solvers "why." It's quite frustrating.
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To answer the OP - the more poker you play the more worth it, it becomes.
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
And another misconception is, that either we play GTO or we dont. But on one side of the spectrum even something as simple as learning preflop charts is an attempt to play GTO. When we open fold J4o from UGT, we are using GTO strategy. And on the other side of the spectrum no human can play exactly like a solver, because its simply way to complicated and involve to much randomization.
Like maybe the solver both check and uses 3 different bet sizes with the same hand at different frequencies, which no human can implement in real time. So the most important is to find out, when we are completely outside the decision making tree. Like maybe the solver always fold a certain hand, but we called. Then we better have a good reason to think, the opponent was overbluffing, because otherwise we are just being a calling station.
jaymfc
R.I.P DJ & Buck
Loyaler
we play freerolls and micro stakes poker, I don't even have a toolbox much less want to learn GTO to put in it.I'll admit that I've never even tried to learn GTO as part of my toolbox for playing poker. For a recreational player like myself, is it worth it to study GTO?
recreational poker and GTO don't even go together unless you wanna drive a nice GTO to the poker room
most already play GTO in our forum games, just bet and "Guess The Outcome".
if you plan to make a living at poker or play high stakes I would suggest you learn every angle including GTO
Goggelheimer
Legend
Platinum Level
Great analysis of this theoretical idea.
GTO = Game Theory optimal, is about theory which is not what is played by people.
The opposite is what is really played by people, the practical game.
My opinion on that is if we play against machines that play GTO we have to play GTO.
If we play against humans, we have to play GPO=Game Practical Optimized regardless if you are a recreational or whatever kind of pro you are.
Game Theory Optimal balances a lot around bluffs, they are part of the game, but most big pots come from solid preflop and position play and good
flop decisions and not from Guess The Outcome.
GTO = Game Theory optimal, is about theory which is not what is played by people.
The opposite is what is really played by people, the practical game.
My opinion on that is if we play against machines that play GTO we have to play GTO.
If we play against humans, we have to play GPO=Game Practical Optimized regardless if you are a recreational or whatever kind of pro you are.
Game Theory Optimal balances a lot around bluffs, they are part of the game, but most big pots come from solid preflop and position play and good
flop decisions and not from Guess The Outcome.
rhoudini
Visionary
Platinum Level
Poker, as any other game, is much more fun when you win. That's a fact. The question is: how can recreational players win more? Of course, knowing more theory. When you study the theory, you have the right criteria to take good decisions. And you can decide how to exploit opponents who are deviating from theory. If you see people doing something outrageous, you know you can exploit them. But how to know what is outrageous? Only knowing the theory. There is no other way.
Recreational players can play good poker. They don't need to be limping every hand or 3-bet shoving 70 BB with ATo, for example.
I am a recreational player who wants to be the best recreational possible. I don't intend to be a professional poker player. But I need to study if I want to get better. I don't have luck, therefore I can't depend on it. I have to study if I want to be better.
Recreational players can play good poker. They don't need to be limping every hand or 3-bet shoving 70 BB with ATo, for example.
I am a recreational player who wants to be the best recreational possible. I don't intend to be a professional poker player. But I need to study if I want to get better. I don't have luck, therefore I can't depend on it. I have to study if I want to be better.
Goggelheimer
Legend
Platinum Level
So I gave no answer to the thread question with this view on GTO.
Here it is:
Every piece of knowledge that you learn makes you a bit more expierienced.
So GTO gives you another view on the game you play and makes you richer in knowledge.
Perhaps it makes you a more complete poker player if you try to get a glimpse on it.
I can't say how much value is in working on a bit of GTO stuff but it may add some more weapons in your poker arsenal.
Sebbour
Legend
Loyaler
I'm recreational player and I enjoy playing poker because it relaxes me. I play only when I have free time and have no aspiration of becoming a pro. Now, with that said, for myself, I don't think studying GTO would be beneficial (given the free time etc etc).I'll admit that I've never even tried to learn GTO as part of my toolbox for playing poker. For a recreational player like myself, is it worth it to study GTO?
But it would be reckless of me that I say to someone that it isn't worth to study it. Even to a recreational player I would recommend, that, if you have a spare time and you want to upgrade your game style you should study it.
eetenor
Legend
Loyaler
it is valuable to know, what GTO strategy is, so that you can make more informed decisions about deviating from it. Like "usually this hand is a call to a 3-bet from that position, but I think, the population is under 3-betting, so I will fold
The above is a great point
How do you exploit well- if you do not know where to start from????
N
neverbluff0799
Legend
Platinum Level
I really think that it depand at wich level you ar eplaying cause GTO in freerolls and GTO in a 10k tourney are 2 different things since players range iwll be way different and calling range will also be way different.