GTO vs ABC poker .

[manolo salazar]

Poker is becoming a sport science that is why there is much information both mathematical and psychological involved in this exciting mental sport, every day certain authors give us new and better update information on how to play Texas Holde'm.
I want to know What is the difference between GTO and ABC poker ? and What could be the best strategy to win poker?

 

[Shady Slim]

GTO (game-theory optimum) is a strategy that treats and solves poker games as if it were a mathematical problem. Supposedly, it cannot be beaten and it will beat anyone who does not use it. If we could program a computer to use it, it will be unbeatable. (Do you remember Big Blue beating chess masters?)

ABC poker in a nutshell is all about fundamentals. Easy to learn.

As mere humans (unless you are a mathematical genius) we do not have the potential to use a GTO strategy. ABC poker strategies are easier to learn and in most cases just common sense to apply. There are some GTO strategies you can learn or adopt. It takes a lot of hand-analysis, and what-if types of scenarios.

Branching off of ABC poker, there are two other strategies once you get the fundamentals down. The strategies are TAG (tight aggressive) and LAG (loose aggressive). TAGs are more positional aware than LAGs. In both cases, you need to develop the ABCs of poker first and get a solid grip on that strategy before using them.

 

[konatus]

Great

GTO (game-theory optimum) is a strategy that treats and solves poker games as if it were a mathematical problem. Supposedly, it cannot be beaten and it will beat anyone who does not use it. If we could program a computer to use it, it will be unbeatable. (Do you remember Big Blue beating chess masters?)

ABC poker in a nutshell is all about fundamentals. Easy to learn.

As mere humans (unless you are a mathematical genius) we do not have the potential to use a GTO strategy. ABC poker strategies are easier to learn and in most cases just common sense to apply. There are some GTO strategies you can learn or adopt. It takes a lot of hand-analysis, and what-if types of scenarios.

Branching off of ABC poker, there are two other strategies once you get the fundamentals down. The strategies are TAG (tight aggressive) and LAG (loose aggressive). TAGs are more positional aware than LAGs. In both cases, you need to develop the ABCs of poker first and get a solid grip on that strategy before using them.

Very nice answer. There are some books about GTO and Math of poker. Search for it.

 

[Shady Slim]

Very nice answer. There are some books about GTO and Math of poker. Search for it.

Thanks. Not sure if I have the mental capacity to absorb that type of math. Maybe 30 or 35 years ago. The old noggin is not what it used to be.

 

[AKQ]

I personally believe the publics concept of GTO is over complicated and overstated as a win every time strategy.


MY PERSONAL THOUGHTS ON GTO Concept in a nutshell
exploiting exploitative play.

 

[finaltable1]

Poker is becoming a sport science that is why there is much information both mathematical and psychological involved in this exciting mental sport, every day certain authors give us new and better update information on how to play Texas Holde'm.
I want to know What is the difference between GTO and ABC poker ? and What could be the best strategy to win poker?

Sport science lol...
Ask yourself - what is the product that poker gives to the society in general and to players who play it? Do they create something? Do they do something useful for themself? They only true winner in poker is the poker host - a company who earns the rake. SO this company will declare poker as new sport, new art, new science, new god... whatever, just to bring new depositors to their website or new members to their tournament.

The best strategy to win poker is to not play poker at all. You're addicted to poker because wins and losses are temporarily increase serotonin level in your body, that's why you're little bit happy when you win pots, and little bit angry when you lose.. If you're not playing poker then it's the same like if you're not taking alcohol or heroine or cocaine, you're winning by not taking drugs.

 

[AKQ]

Sport science lol...
Ask yourself - what is the product that poker gives to the society in general and to players who play it? Do they create something? Do they do something useful for themself? They only true winner in poker is the poker host - a company who earns the rake. SO this company will declare poker as new sport, new art, new science, new god... whatever, just to bring new depositors to their website or new members to their tournament.

The best strategy to win poker is to not play poker at all. You're addicted to poker because wins and losses are temporarily increase serotonin level in your body, that's why you're little bit happy when you win pots, and little bit angry when you lose.. If you're not playing poker then it's the same like if you're not taking alcohol or heroine or cocaine, you're winning by not taking drugs.

I would love to argue with you about the topic but sadly the overall census and 90% of the poker community has lost alot of money and only the 10% best make any money. 100% of poker rooms profit you are right.
But comparing poker to drugs is farfetch'd
By that same line of thinking You could say "Stop playing that candy crush your gonna be smoking crack in an hour if you don't"

Games are games and they are fun, people enjoying themselves having a good time and don't mind paying a little for it.
With any game never gamble anything you can't afford to lose/spend * play responsibly*
I wouldn't urge people to not play any "game" lol especially poker I love the intricacies of the game.
unless its a Ouija board get that shit the F out my house

 

[PaxMundi]

Im not an expert on Gto by any stretch of the immagination but from what i understand,Gto is essentially always +ev in a vacuum.But it isn't necessarily the most profitable strategy with information as often times the exploitable play is the most +ev line .So it depends on the situation and villain your playing as to which strategy you would want to employ agasint them.

 

[Smokewood]

Exploitive play > GTO

 

[finaltable1]

I would love to argue with you about the topic but sadly the overall census and 90% of the poker community has lost alot of money and only the 10% best make any money. 100% of poker rooms profit you are right.
But comparing poker to drugs is farfetch'd
By that same line of thinking You could say "Stop playing that candy crush your gonna be smoking crack in an hour if you don't"

Games are games and they are fun, people enjoying themselves having a good time and don't mind paying a little for it.
With any game never gamble anything you can't afford to lose/spend * play responsibly*
I wouldn't urge people to not play any "game" lol especially poker I love the intricacies of the game.
unless its a Ouija board get that shit the F out my house

Isn't it obvious that poker companies are selling serotonin?

Isn't it obvious that there is no difference for a PC server when it hosts a freeroll for 1000 players vs hosting a $109 buy-in MTT? In both cases computer will consumer 1$ of energy and 20 cents of traffic.

If you understand that there is no difference for a PC server in both cases, then how come poker companies are charging 10% rake in all cases instead of charging for example 10$ per month per player or like 20-50 cents rake for any tournament?

Isn't it obvious from such point of view that online poker is rigged? It is as rigged as a drug dealer who gives you a free first doze... online poker companies are exploiting 2 major weaknesses of human nature = greed and stupidity.

Most obvious example of collective stupidity can be found at iPoker network SNG... there are 20cent SNGs, that start with 6 participants = 1.2euro... and there are 3 prizes, 1 euro each. SNG has 12 minute late registration and the registration for the new SNG starts right after previous tournament has started... Isn't it obvious that it's better for all participants to not join during late registration and leave each tournament with 6 players... It's even better for all players to go all-in in the very first hand and start a new SNG right after the first hand.

But

It never happens, because of greed and stupidity.

And commenting your words:

- not the ten % best, but 10% luckiest are in the money... you can get AA 7 times in a row and get no action, or you can flop a full house with 72os, at 777 flop and have opponent with pocket aces against you. In the long run luck factor helps those who play a lot without tilting.

- games are games - you're right, but fanatical behavior often has a factor of hate and other strong feelings.

This game - online poker - is one of the worst for the human nature. AT first this game creates nothing useful for the society in general and for each individual. THere is no useful product that poker creates. But it creates many problems instead... like some drug addict who spents his money and might start selling his stuff, car and house to get a new doze, the same way poker player can behave. It's not a game like basketball or water polo, where you have to do something and practice, in this game - you have to sit and click... ANd this is terrible.

 

[frnandoh]

Im satisfied with freeroll level

 

[GrannySmit77]

I think in live poker if you only play GTO you become exploitable. Other players might pick up on that. It's easier for them to evaluate your ranges. You have to mix up your game.

 

[frnandoh]

I ddnt study GTO yet, I ve heard about concepts and it is hard to believe that GTO can be wrong (Being profitable even if villain know what is your range), but some players are already experiencing a high variance as a GTO result. It's good but it costs more expensive.

I think in live poker if you only play GTO you become exploitable. Other players might pick up on that. It's easier for them to evaluate your ranges. You have to mix up your game.

 

[Cajin007]

GTO poker is 0EV for players with equal skill and strategies.
Exploitative poker uses deviation from GTO to gain an edge over a strategy, but in itself can be exploited.
ABC poker is an understanding of fundamental strategies, and finding what works best for your style/temperament.
Everyone implements some form of all three at some point of their play, whether it's unconsciously, or calculated.
And for that reason, players are flocking back to poker. For a game that would take several lifetimes to solve, technology has begun shrinking that time to near human expectancy.
But what most don't understand, is that one would have to commit a lifetime to purely studying the game, and nothing else.
Most don't have the will, or ability to do such a thing, and think that it's some new way to make money quick.
GTO is an old concept, that is just regaining new life.
Look at the Fundamental Theory of Poker, it's GTO in a nutshell.

 

[finaltable1]

GTO poker is 0EV for players with equal skill and strategies.
Exploitative poker uses deviation from GTO to gain an edge over a strategy, but in itself can be exploited.
ABC poker is an understanding of fundamental strategies, and finding what works best for your style/temperament.
Everyone implements some form of all three at some point of their play, whether it's unconsciously, or calculated.
And for that reason, players are flocking back to poker. For a game that would take several lifetimes to solve, technology has begun shrinking that time to near human expectancy.
But what most don't understand, is that one would have to commit a lifetime to purely studying the game, and nothing else.
Most don't have the will, or ability to do such a thing, and think that it's some new way to make money quick.
GTO is an old concept, that is just regaining new life.
Look at the Fundamental Theory of Poker, it's GTO in a nutshell.

I can't disagree with "poker is not a collect comination game" part of your message.

But I do disagree with poker being unsolved game.

Objectively poker is a solved game for long time. It's obvious that one participant in the game is always in profit. It's the dealer who earns rake. Rake is a small, but stable profit that turns into huge profit in a period of time. So the dealer, or poker room is a constant winner, while rest of the participants are just rake generating schimpanzees. And dealers main job, I mean his main focus is to keep apes playing the game as long as possible, that's why they're paying soccer, ufc stars, singers, actors, brokers to play the game, because these people have fans and some part of these fans will blindly follow interests of their admired star.

Poker is about money, not about cards, odds, flushes and pairs, not about human behavior types. This game is only about the money. There is no difference for a pc server when it hosts a 1000 player freeroll or when it hosts 1000 player $1.1 buy-in MTT or when it hosts $109 Sunday million MTT. In all cases computer will consume less than one dollar of energy and traffic. The profit of poker provider is based on greed and on visible chance to win a big prize.

If you're still not getting it - try not to split poker players into sharks and donks, DO not split players into "often winning Regs-Pros" and "always losing newbs"... Try to split poker world in 2 different parts: 1)Poker consumers(community) vs 2)Poker providers(poker sites and casinos) and it will be obvious that one side always wins, other side always loses. This is why poker is a solved game, and the winning part will give you more and more reasons to play the game, like new concepts, huge bonuses, new types of poker and so on... But objectively it's not different from trading mirrors to gold bars. :tomatooker teaches you nothing good, no new knowledge, just some easy school-like calculations and stereotype-template thinking. Majority of poker "regs" could earn much more money having some real job and doing something useful for the society than trying to rob the one who tries to rob you at the poker table.

P.S. Sorry for the language that might sound little bit rude.:icon_flow

 

[Cajin007]

From the players perpective it's a work in progress.
From a host point of view, it's a cash cow.
I no doubt that anyone, or anything, that provides a venue for players to play the game isn't flat out raking in bank.
And a cash game is a zero sum game, in that given enough time, your bankroll sum will end up at zero due to rake.
Plus the fact that virtual game host can possibly manipulate the game, so as to increase profit, is why i don't play cash games at all.
I understand how gambling works, and i know the risk involved. And how operators are about as bad as drug dealers.( quantity over quality)

But not all players are junkies. Some are capable of never touching the stuff, and some know full well their limits, and put themselves in position to never exceed those limits.
If an individual is unable controll their risk, than yes they have a serious problem that needs attention immediately.
And yes poker is a polarized game, in that for every winner there is a loser. However, it can be played so that in the long run, a player even with the host taking a cut, breaks even.

 

[NWPatriot]

GTO poker is 0EV for players with equal skill and strategies.
Exploitative poker uses deviation from GTO to gain an edge over a strategy, but in itself can be exploited.
ABC poker is an understanding of fundamental strategies, and finding what works best for your style/temperament.

Exactly, there are only these three strategies.

Theoretically a GTO strategy cannot be exploited, but it is not guaranteed to be the most profitable either. Exploitative poker takes advantage of specific leaks or weaknesses that are present, but by deviating from GTO, you open yourself up to being exploited yourself. Of course this is the human element of the game and where the battle of wits begins.

It seems to me that understanding what GTO is, as best as is humanly possible, is a great thing to know. At this point, you can be selective in your exploitative lines and take advantage of those great opportunities/spots that present themselves, or even create those opportunities for yourself, if you are able. We all begin with straightforward ABC poker, until we start to see and understand how the game really plays.

Just an opinion of course. Good luck!

 

[NWPatriot]

... Try to split poker world in 2 different parts: 1)Poker consumers(community) vs 2)Poker providers(poker sites and casinos) and it will be obvious that one side always wins, other side always loses. ...
... But objectively it's not different from trading mirrors to gold bars. Poker teaches you nothing good, no new knowledge, just some easy school-like calculations and stereotype-template thinking. Majority of poker "regs" could earn much more money having some real job and doing something useful for the society than trying to rob the one who tries to rob you at the poker table. ..

As a follow up to the "addiction" problem discussed here. I have always held the opinion that we are all addicted to something. We can call it a hobby, a passion or even something more sinister than that. The challenge for all of us is to ensure that what holds our interest does not cause us or anyone else harm - the term addiction seems to be the unhealthy element of a passion. We may be "addicted" to gardening, home improvement, our money, music, technology, our job, our car, a sport, our local sports team, food, gambling, sex, alcohol, or the worst of them all, drugs. Being addicted to one, does not lead to being addicted to another. We all have interests and we all have ways to get our fix. Some personalities lend themselves more towards the extreme edge of a passion than others, but we all have our thing.

For any addiction listed here, someone has to pay someone else something to get their fix. Folks that follow their local sports team in excess, can "pay" 1000's of dollars for jerseys and tickets and subscriptions, all in the name of a passion. This looks very much like an addiction to me. Is this more noble than the other non-harmful addictions?

I am well acquainted with addictions and fear that my poker hobby might turn into an addiction. I enjoy the challenge of moving to the next level. I enjoy the challenge of finding the solution. I get that someone (casino) gets a piece of the pie for providing the opportunity to play a game. Maybe the casinos make more than they deserve, but so do sports stars that make $80M salaries and so do stock brokers who make 1% of our portfolio for watching us win or lose our savings. Our society is a little bit twisted no matter which direction we turn.