Donk, Probe &/or Blocking Bets

[Ezekiel162]

Been contemplating my AF as of late because I think I may have been playing on-tilt w/o noticing it. Had to re-evaluate what hands I could have played differently and how because I've been taking some hits. I think I might be playing "scared" because of some bad beats even though I know I'm supposed to suck it up and move on. Low-Limits might be starting to affect me because of all the opponents that either "tap-dance", bluff or just won't fold even in the face of completely pure aggression regardless of cards.

So I started to look through all the various tactics in my poker "tool-box" and wanted to revisit Donk, Probe &/or Blocking Bets. Any players find any/or no use for them? If so/or not, Why?

I don't support or not support them... I'm just looking for some honest opinions as to their usefulness...

 

[Ezekiel162]

Aiight... I'll bite...


Interviewer: "The viewers are not feeling you Eze. Heard a few whispers & rumors to the effect of "Why would you be SO STUPID (chuckles) to bring up insignificant and seemingly useless betting patterns that would go against the concepts of aggression, solid poker play and +EV in a forum where these standards are an absolute must?"

Ezekiel162: "Well Dudley, The question was an honest one. While on lower-limits I've had the opportunity to play a lot of tournaments & SNGs and where the ONLY point to me is win the f'n game by ANY means possible so you you can place Eze... Seems different to me than a ring game where all those above factors should always come into play. If certain tools work against certain players then I say use them..."

Interviewer: "Yes but wouldn't standard bet/re-raise sizes accomplish the same thing?"
(Interview pauses for 1-2 minutes as laughter and eye-rolling issues from the audience) :rofl:

Ezekiel162: "Of Course, Always, but I've used these in certain situations to avoid... (microphone buzzing) ...plus some players want to... (more buzzing) ...seems to work when... (final buzz) ... and that's why I originally asked HONESTLY if the above betting patterns have had any usefulness for anyone else." :icon_scra

Interviewer: (scratching head) "Hmm... Interesting points. Open discussion, Anyone? and, um... er... no flaming/trolling please."

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

lol your interviewers called Dudley?

I need to start using them to be honest, but I'm gonna assume the main argument is you shouldn't be playing enough hands OOP for this to be a problem?

on top of the fact you have to be balanced with your donking, or else regs will just raise you every time assuming you'd check raise all your nut hands and check call with TP like hands etc.. so when you donk you can never have a nut hand so raising becomes a more likely possibility, and then you're playing a bloated pot OOP with a marginal holding.

and a lot of players here are just starting out, adding donking to their arsenal will probably just make them make more mistakes..

be nice to hear what everyone else has got to say though, I'm probably wrong in my thought process but w/e

 

[BlueNowhere]

I find donking useful in some spots (although i don't make a habit of using it). Sometimes I use it because I don't want someone checking back and getting a free card. If I feel that they think my range is too strong to semi-bluff and they would rather get a free card as well as having position on me so they can own me on river if the realise any equity (because they're aware my plan is to check/shove so checking back is best and they don't get put in a shit spot)

Another spot I sometimes donk out is if button open limps pre and sb folds. I have 64o. Flop comes AK2 and button bets small, I float with the intention of donking as that completely misses both of our range but since he open limped I can safely presume he is a fish who has no idea of my range. Now I can't c/r turn and I don't want him to fire again so by donking out I give him his get-out and unless he caught the turn ( I think his hand looks like J9s, 8Ts so it's hard for him to have anything) I win the pot a lot.

Both very situational and sometimes other spots come out where I feel donking is best. If anything comes up in my session later I'll post it here and explain my reasoning behind it.

 

[doomasiggy]

*disclaimer, not a particularly good player so take this with a pinch of salt.

I think there's an argument to be made for donking strong hands vs stations. Checking back to them is never good, since they're rarely aggressive enough to c-bet, but they're nearly always calling your bets so long as you don't put in a pot sized bet or bigger.

 

[baudib1]

I think it's odd to put donk/probe/block bets altogether as they are very different things but in general when donking I like to bet half-pot or less.

I donk mega-polarized on dry boards, especially paired boards; and merged on wet boards. On wet boards I will often bet larger.

 

[Jillychemung]

Blocking bets can be very useful on FD boards where we want to see a cheaper turn card and you know someone in LP will likely make a large bet if checked to.

 

[JusSumguy]

Yep.. blocking bets are crucial.

-

 

[Ezekiel162]

Thanks for the responses everyone. Just got through playing 10 SNGs after fiddling around with all of these bet types and adjusting the sizes. Won 9 of them. So I'll definitely use these a little more, when appropriate, at least at the lower limits. Been using a lot of probe bets lately to avoid a lot of players that "hide in the bushes".

lol your interviewers called Dudley?

Yep... Had 2 think of a fairly unusual name to get some attention to this Thread. The first post was feeling a little lonely...

I'm gonna assume the main argument is you shouldn't be playing enough hands OOP for this to be a problem?

No real argument to be made, just looking for different comments/suggestions on these type of bets to enhance/deviate from normal play every so often when switching...

If there are any more opinions on different types of bets I'd love 2 hear them. It helps my gameplay...

 

[BlueNowhere]

Example of what I talked about earlier.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.5 Tournament, 30/60 Blinds 6 Ante (2 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t1645)
Hero (BB) (t1355)

Hero's M: 13.28

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4

, 2

SB calls t30, Hero checks

Flop: (t132) A

, 7

, A

(2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets t60, Hero calls t60

Turn: (t252) 7

(2 players)
Hero bets t105, 1 fold

Total pot: t252

Results:

Spoiler

Hero didn't show 4

, 2

.
Outcome: Hero won t252

 

[JOEBOB69]

I hate that float oop blue.You rep no pp,AX i prob would call down with K,maybe Q high there.I hate floating oop period though.(doesn't mean i don't do it but it's blah)

 

[BlueNowhere]

I'd seen him complete and bet small several times. Admittedly the 7 wasn't really the best card for me as it meant I get called down by Kx like 100% but his range is weak but ahead of me and then only way I can win this is by betting. I can even be value betting Kx here. I always had the intention of donking out which is why I floated. If I didn't have that intention I wouldn't be floating.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

obv he doesn't rep anything but the point is neither does the limper.

assuming he's a fish?

he's gonna pretty fold everything -7/Ax imo and the boards double paired so he can even fold FD's.

we're not analysing the hand though, just the point that donk betting can and should be used more often.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Yeah you're right this isn't HA.
So donk bet can be used for a bluff and for a value bet.
Probe bet = betting for info=stupid
Blocking bets can be usefull in certain hands vs certain villains

 

[Ezekiel162]

Gotta hand it 2 u Blue'. You definitely know how to read 'em. Albeit a fairly dangerous move OOP, you did clarify that you intended to do so regardless...

Question tho'

Floating is calling the flop and then betting if checked to on the turn and donking is like leading out after calling on a previous round, and, not just leading into a pf raiser?

So donk bets can be done from pretty much any street? Also the main difference between the two is the fact of whether the hero has position or not? Just a little confused because Joe' referred to your play as a float...

Probe bet = betting for info=stupid

I agree for the main part with this except while playing lower limits I've thrown like a 1-2bb bet out every so often because some players are prone to letting a few people get in the pot by calling with like TPTKs and then mowing down everyone's bets by shoving. This has saved my bacon a few times. It's akin to throwing chum into the waters to see what what it attacts before sticking my leg in. I probably wouldn't do this at higher levels as I agree that it wastes money/stacks when appropriate bet/sizings and plays should give an experienced player the same info anyway...

 

[BlueNowhere]

Gotta hand it 2 u Blue'. You definitely know how to read 'em. Albeit a fairly dangerous move OOP, you did clarify that you intended to do so regardless...

Question tho'

Floating is calling the flop and then betting if checked to on the turn and donking is like leading out after calling on a previous round, and, not just leading into a pf raiser?

So donk bets can be done from pretty much any street? Also the main difference between the two is the fact of whether the hero has position or not? Just a little confused because Joe' referred to your play as a float...

I might not have done it on a Q/J/T turn because I think his limping range has too much of that in. He had folded pre when HU so he can't just have ATC so his range looks more weighted towards stuff like Q5, J8 etc.

Not sure of the strict definition but I thought of floating as calling with the intention of taking the pot away on a later street. Yea you can donk any street. I could've donked flop but that's not going to be as profitable imo. I only need it to work 30% of the time to be profitable. I think I'm looking at >50% so I print money.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

I think I'm looking at >50% so I print money.

Blue confirmed:

 

[BlueNowhere]

If I knew how to photoshop I'd come back with some good picture that involved that money being on fire somehow and a FYP comment.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

If I knew how to photoshop I'd come back with some good picture that involved that money being on fire somehow and a FYP comment.

haha, $1.50 6 max HT's, eurgh.

no-one got anything to say on OP justifying probe betting?

don't really understand the post though.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Gotta hand it 2 u Blue'. You definitely know how to read 'em. Albeit a fairly dangerous move OOP, you did clarify that you intended to do so regardless...

Question tho'

Floating is calling the flop and then betting if checked to on the turn and donking is like leading out after calling on a previous round, and, not just leading into a pf raiser?

So donk bets can be done from pretty much any street? Also the main difference between the two is the fact of whether the hero has position or not? Just a little confused because Joe' referred to your play as a float...


I agree for the main part with this except while playing lower limits I've thrown like a 1-2bb bet out every so often because some players are prone to letting a few people get in the pot by calling with like TPTKs and then mowing down everyone's bets by shoving. This has saved my bacon a few times. It's akin to throwing chum into the waters to see what what it attacts before sticking my leg in. every bet you make should be for value or as a bluff I probably wouldn't do this at higher levels as I agree that it wastes money/stacks when appropriate bet/sizings and plays should give an experienced player the same info anyway...

Just at the smaller limits it should be weighted towards value way more often than at higher stakes.

 

[Ezekiel162]

Maybe i should clarify that I don't probe bet often, only on tournament/sng (non-ring/non-cash) and for virtually insignificant amounts and pretty much only at the start of games. I guess I should call it "landmine-defusing" bets (...lol...) instead of probe bets. I know it's their it's not right to place but once again you have all types at the lower limits so I guess I could also call them "screening bets" because I hate placing a fairly nice-sized bet only to have to muck after getting shoved... idk if that explains a little better cause I know it sounds weird...

 

[Ezekiel162]

Just at the smaller limits it should be weighted towards value way more often than at higher stakes.

Thanks for reminding me of this. I seem to keep forgetting. :top:

 

[JOEBOB69]

This will be more detailed than i'm going to write.
For donk betting
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-donk-betting-970282/
And here is one on blocking bets.Though after reading the op make sure you read the rest of the thread.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/concept-week-12-blocking-bets-465053/

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

so whats your theory?

what do you do if called?

if raised?

I'm not hating I just don't understand at all.

 

[Ezekiel162]

so whats your theory?

what do you do if called?

if raised?

I'm not hating I just don't understand at all.

I feel U...

Well, the flaws in my logic occurs because of situations like this:

SNG
Game starts 5/10 current blind w/ 1000 chip stacks 10 players
We'll assume that I'm at CO with KdQd
Everyone limps to me (pot 75chips)
I raise 3bb + 1 for every limper (90chips)
Button, SB AND BB shoves...

Even With the fairly high implied odds I don't want to risk my tournament life facing 3+ players. I figure had I played 2bbs I could have saved 70 with the same result, although I know this flawed logic allows drawing hands to creep in if noones fails to shove. It just seems like some idiots are always shoving... At least at game start anyway.

So I guess I use the play either at earlier game levels and also against players that I sense to be "bushwackers" (those that slow play monsters...) that will tend to spring their trap to quick when they realize I will NOT place enough money into the pot to make it worth their while to continue their deception.

Maybe some alternate suggestions here?; because I KNOW from reading and everything that this is the WRONG way to play, but it has helped me immensely. NOT as being a better player, but as surviving long enough through the above situations to eventually exercise standards I know to be correct to win the game...

Maybe when I finally move up limits I won't even imagine doing the above and laugh at how silly I'm playing now because I'm assuming that player's skill increase as well...