Bluffing in or out of position.

[johnsulliv]

Sometimes, if you see a reason for bluffing the strongest hand either pre flop/post flop or turn or river against 1 or perhaps more of your opponents.


Sometimes it matters the hand your dealt, other times it might not even matter that much.

I also find some hands where it feels as though the opponant wants to fold his hand knowing how bad It missed the flop but will still pay to see the turn and river just to truly know they are beat and fold on a medium sized bet on the river.

Folding the losing hand is always still the top priority in winning tournaments in my limited experience.

Thank you for you time

 

[roger perkins]

The best advice I ever got on bluffing is. Don't try to bluff multiple players. Don't try to Bluff if it doesn't make sense.

 

[johnsulliv]

The best advice I ever got on bluffing is. Don't try to Bluff multiple players. Don't try to Bluff if it doesn't make sense.

It's a great bit of advice and I think it is also sound judgement.

However,
Is bluffing a multiple pot the same as using your position and a well placed bet to perhaps bluff one or two potential callers in later streets?


Thank you for your time.

 

[thetick33]

this all depends on your opponents.... i tend to shove at times in first position knowing the field knows me so expect me to have a monster in order to do it at that point.... thing is they've seen me with monsters often at that position etc... so its all in set up and your table image that is key to a good bluff whatever the position.... i tend to show some timely hands in tournaments and final tables et...

 

[Kraanjhb7]

In my opinion as long as there are 2 or less opponents left (because if it is more you are looking for trouble) and it make sense to an opponent of what you might have depending how you set it up that round or prior rounds are he things that I look at regardless of my position. Chipstacks, tournament fase and is it neccesary are all taken into account. I guess it is a bit easier in late position if everything else is in your favour.

 

[johnsulliv]

In my opinion as long as there are 2 or less opponents left (because if it is more you are looking for trouble) and it make sense to an opponent of what you might have depending how you set it up that round or prior rounds are he things that I look at regardless of my position. Chipstacks, tournament fase and is it neccesary are all taken into account. I guess it is a bit easier in late position if everything else is in your favour.

Very true, I think the most important question is like you said, is, "is it neccesary"

Thank you for your time.

 

[NWPatriot]

Think about your chances of success and what you are trying to accomplish. Similar to how your equity to win at showdown reduces with more players, your equity for all to fold will also reduce with more players.

Simplistically, if you are making a bluff bet and you need 2 players to fold and they will both fold 50% of the time, your chances of getting both players to fold might be 25% (0.50 x 0.50 = 0.25), rather than 50% chance of getting only one player to fold. If there are three players, then your chances of success are only 12.5% (0.50 x 0.50 x 0.50 = .125). This is a pretty dramatic difference in likelihood of success.

If you are against 2 players on the flop, your flop bet might get one player to fold, then you will need another bluff bet (double barrel) on the turn or river to get the other player to fold. Since you need 2 bets to have an element of success, your likelihood is still about 25% in this scenario.

If you are going to bluff, pick your spots well. Total bluffs should be rare. Semi-bluffs, where you have some outs to the winning hand in case you are called, are good insurance when you do bluff.

 

[YKCaiTLH1314]

Bluffing work best when these 3 elements are all in place.
Position + Represent + Range
When you are in position, you gathered the most information your opponent/s gave before you decide to represent the hand you fake within the range you could have.
Example,
Villain UTG+1 have AhKh open 3x BB, all fold to you on button with 8dJc.
Hero called.
Flop 2d 5s 9h rainbow dryboard.
Villain Cbet 3/4 pot to represent strong

Now, you have options.
A) Call and bluff on turn if it's another lower card and of course hope to pair your hand
B) 3bet to represent you hit a set, 34 open ended str8 draw, or even represent A9
C) fold

Turn was Ts (2d 5s 9h)

If villain fire again, this is perfect timing for you to shove. You range represent so many possibility that he can't make the call.
If villain check the turn, it is also your perfect timing to bet 3/4 pot to force him off the hand.

Now, think about this.
What if....you are not in position?
What if....you switch position with villain?
Will you be able to perform such stunt?
I doubt.
So, to make a bluff work, position is still very vital before anything else.

 

[johnsulliv]

Think about your chances of success and what you are trying to accomplish. Similar to how your equity to win at showdown reduces with more players, your equity for all to fold will also reduce with more players.

Simplistically, if you are making a bluff bet and you need 2 players to fold and they will both fold 50% of the time, your chances of getting both players to fold might be 25% (0.50 x 0.50 = 0.25), rather than 50% chance of getting only one player to fold. If there are three players, then your chances of success are only 12.5% (0.50 x 0.50 x 0.50 = .125). This is a pretty dramatic difference in likelihood of success.

If you are against 2 players on the flop, your flop bet might get one player to fold, then you will need another bluff bet (double barrel) on the turn or river to get the other player to fold. Since you need 2 bets to have an element of success, your likelihood is still about 25% in this scenario.

If you are going to bluff, pick your spots well. Total bluffs should be rare. Semi-bluffs, where you have some outs to the winning hand in case you are called, are good insurance when you do bluff.

This is great advice.

Not that it’s all totally statistics and percentages, what you said makes sense.
I do know that opponents behavior, chips, pot, etc all have contributing variables.

Thank you for your time.

 

[johnsulliv]

Bluffing work best when these 3 elements are all in place.
Position + Represent + Range
When you are in position, you gathered the most information your opponent/s gave before you decide to represent the hand you fake within the range you could have.
Example,
Villain UTG+1 have AhKh open 3x BB, all fold to you on button with 8dJc.
Hero called.
Flop 2d 5s 9h rainbow dryboard.
Villain Cbet 3/4 pot to represent strong

Now, you have options.
A) Call and bluff on turn if it's another lower card and of course hope to pair your hand
B) 3bet to represent you hit a set, 34 open ended str8 draw, or even represent A9
C) fold

Turn was Ts (2d 5s 9h)

If villain fire again, this is perfect timing for you to shove. You range represent so many possibility that he can't make the call.
If villain check the turn, it is also your perfect timing to bet 3/4 pot to force him off the hand.

Now, think about this.
What if....you are not in position?
What if....you switch position with villain?
Will you be able to perform such stunt?
I doubt.
So, to make a bluff work, position is still very vital before anything else.

I think I would have considerably more chips than the villain if I was playing well and wanted to bluff that hand.

Also I would imagine me raising pre flop if I was going to make a move.
With the villian betting back to me in this instance, I would maybe call and see his next move imagining him with at least connecting with the board and me really relying on a T and a Q.


So many varying factors, however thank you for your guidance and your time.

 

[zinzir]

Bluffing work best when these 3 elements are all in place.
Position + Represent + Range
When you are in position, you gathered the most information your opponent/s gave before you decide to represent the hand you fake within the range you could have.
Example,
Villain UTG+1 have AhKh open 3x BB, all fold to you on button with 8dJc.
Hero called.
Flop 2d 5s 9h rainbow dryboard.
Villain Cbet 3/4 pot to represent strong

Now, you have options.
A) Call and bluff on turn if it's another lower card and of course hope to pair your hand
B) 3bet to represent you hit a set, 34 open ended str8 draw, or even represent A9
C) fold

Turn was Ts (2d 5s 9h)

If villain fire again, this is perfect timing for you to shove. You range represent so many possibility that he can't make the call.
If villain check the turn, it is also your perfect timing to bet 3/4 pot to force him off the hand.

Now, think about this.
What if....you are not in position?
What if....you switch position with villain?
Will you be able to perform such stunt?
I doubt.
So, to make a bluff work, position is still very vital before anything else.

Your whole story is based on the opponent having AK, and if you put your opponent on that hand I don't see how position makes any difference in bluffing him. The stunt might look a little different, with you making the c-bets, but it would basically be the same kind of stunt.

 

[johnsulliv]

Your whole story is based on the opponent having AK, and if you put your opponent on that hand I don't see how position makes any difference in bluffing him. The stunt might look a little different, with you making the c-bets, but it would basically be the same kind of stunt.

My apologises
I misread your earlier post.
I understand now more what you meant to say.
If the villain had AK, I missed this part.

If I was fully bluffing I'd be min raising for a low pair and calling along all streets. If I thought that the villain was on a draw for over cards. Folding on raising on the river.

If I was chasing the straight as your hand indicates, against what I thought was ak, I would be raising either on the flop, and check. Or checking the flop and on the turn, checking the river (ideally)

I don't mean to say what I do is right, quite the opposite.

Thank you for your input.

 

[zinzir]

My apologises
I misread your earlier post.
I understand now more what you meant to say.
If the villain had AK, I missed this part.

If I was fully bluffing I'd be min raising for a low pair and calling along all streets. If I thought that the villain was on a draw for over cards. Folding on raising on the river.

If I was chasing the straight as your hand indicates, against what I thought was ak, I would be raising either on the flop, and check. Or checking the flop and on the turn, checking the river (ideally)

I don't mean to say what I do is right, quite the opposite.

Thank you for your input.

I would very much thank you for your polite apology, but probably it was not meant for me, since I did not make an earlier post. I was simply replying to YKCai about the position example at the end of his post, that's all. All the best!

 

[YKCaiTLH1314]

Your whole story is based on the opponent having AK, and if you put your opponent on that hand I don't see how position makes any difference in bluffing him. The stunt might look a little different, with you making the c-bets, but it would basically be the same kind of stunt.

Hi,
My whole intention was to explain to OP regarding Position.
With position advantage, one can Represent 'Anything' that is within or out of range.
That AK hand was just an example. There's tons of example to be named.

 

[YKCaiTLH1314]

https://www.cardschat.com/bluffing.php

4 out of 4 on this says best time to bluff is when you are in position.

 

[roger perkins]

It's a great bit of advice and I think it is also sound judgement.

However,
Is bluffing a multiple pot the same as using your position and a well placed bet to perhaps bluff one or two potential callers in later streets?


Thank you for your time.

sorry it took so long to answer you.
dont get me wrong i have set up a bluff in a multiway pot by raising from position with 2 or maybe even 3 players and the flop is A84 i might bluff the ace if i know the players are tight and will fold. but that is situational, and that bluff since i set it up made sense becaused i raised preflop also im looking to do this with players i have notes and stats on. but in general someone may hit something worth calling in a multiway pot. so i tend not to try and bluff more than 1 player

 

[thetick33]

i came back read what i wrote the most important thing about a bluff is the story you tell... this is what is going to make or break you so to speak... if the story makes sense especially to seasoned good players its probably easier to bluff at right times in right positions etc.. if the story does not make sense well good players are probably gonna catch that at times or more often..... a good bluff needs a good story

 

[delirium1129]

I bluff only vs stats regardless the position) Also I want to tell that in the modern poker it's to hard to fold an opponent that why I prefer to make the bluff only when I have very valuable reasons.

 

[praevus]

I bluff in or out position, depend the player but I never bluff multiple players.
I think that a good bluff is when you tell a history that you have a good hand.

 

[johnsulliv]

I bluff in or out position, depend the player but I never bluff multiple players.
I think that a good bluff is when you tell a history that you have a good hand.

Yeah I normally misread my outright bluffs and have more success with semi bluffs with either a check raise, call check raise, or straight c bet out of position (from a limped pot in BB position.

 

[myquickwit]

It's always better to be in position.

 

[johnsulliv]

I bluff only vs stats regardless the position) Also I want to tell that in the modern poker it's to hard to fold an opponent that why I prefer to make the bluff only when I have very valuable reasons.

Haha, I sometimes I’m still living in 2015

Valid point

What stats do you go by? What’s the most important one in your opinion?

 

[AKQ]

I bluff in or out position, depend the player but I never bluff multiple players.
I think that a good bluff is when you tell a history that you have a good hand.

What you never told a story to a crowd?

 

[manzanillo53]

My bluffing % is abysmal, I am getting better, but it is still something I really do not like doing. My % of calling someone I feel is bluffing is even worse. So I stopped, and it has paid off.

 

[1nsomn1a]

I think it's worth bluffing out of position against a tight opponent if the flop doesn't fit his range. Against a loose player, I prefer a check raise bluff on the flop, this stops the loose player well .