Stabled poker playing - opportunity or horror?

Tero

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Call me cynical but I have a very negative view about those sites that offer long term backing even for small stakes players.

I'm not saying that they all are garbage but who knows? Starting split of winnings is usually 50/50 but if you keep losing you still owe them makeup.

And the amount you need to play is beyond me. 300 games a month is pretty the much minimum norm.

I've seen a one happy camper though. The Danish streamer Daniel Petersen doesn't keep it a secret that he is a fully backed player. Even the fact that he is currently over half a million dollars in makeup doesn't seem to concern him. But I guess he has a much better deal than 50/50?

Not that I would ever want to become anyone's milking cow, are there any upsides that I might have missed? Being able to play higher stakes than I normally would is not an upside in my view.
 
S3mper

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I'm sure there are some instances where it's beneficial for this type of deal. For example (made up) if someone who otherwise wouldn't be able to play who can make secondary income from sponsorships because they're playing but in general, I'd agree.

That said backing situations that have coaching attached to it can be very beneficial if the coaching is good.

If someone is in millions in makeup, they obviously made a good decision as now they aren't down millions lol. They also have the possibility of being dropped.

I think deals that involve coaching for a percentage of the winnings tend to be a better deal for both parties instead of full staking.
 
Emily Trott

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Call me cynical but I have a very negative view about those sites that offer long term backing even for small stakes players.

I'm not saying that they all are garbage but who knows? Starting split of winnings is usually 50/50 but if you keep losing you still owe them makeup.
I think that you are correct to be suspicious and cynical about this sort of setup. If you keep losing and owe them funds for that then you aren't being backed, but rather you are being loaned money.
 
Poker Orifice

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Parts you're leaving out are >>> He's part of a great team with some very good players.
He's formerly one of the Top Spin 'N Go players.
Moved to MTT's where he's been receiving coaching from Matthias Eibinger

In the past 18mos. he's +$375k on Stars & over a Million on GG (total cashes on GG since starting MTT's in 2021 -> $6 Million)
 
Tero

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Parts you're leaving out are >>> He's part of a great team with some very good players.
He's formerly one of the Top Spin 'N Go players.
Moved to MTT's where he's been receiving coaching from Matthias Eibinger
True, he is a great player. But still he is in over half a million makeup. I have no doubt that he'll get there.

But, to my question...
are there any upsides that I might have missed?
 
Suns of Beaches

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Stables are just another nail in the online poker coffin.

Poker is not a team sport!
He asked if there are any upsides and not about general opinions on staking. Stables do exist and it's the reality.

According to u (a replay play money reg) everything regarding online poker is dead. How many times do u want to repeat urself?
 
Suns of Beaches

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True, he is a great player. But still he is in over half a million makeup. I have no doubt that he'll get there.

But, to my question...
Maybe the upside is that if he really decides to stop playing, he does not have to pay the markup? I mean obv they want it but how can they legally enforce it?

And if he is really up like @Poker Orifice said, how is he still in markup like that? Up in other games that were not part of the stacking deal?
 
Tero

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And if he is really up like @Poker Orifice said, how is he still in markup like that? Up in other games that were not part of the stacking deal?
I don't know... But he said it himself on his stream some days ago when it was asked in his chat. He was very open about it. He also said that year before the makeup was close to a million o_O
 
dimon4ik89

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I understand what you are talking about. These are funds that offer backing. I negotiated with several such funds, half a year ago, last summer. I even started cooperation with one of them, at first they give a trial contract for a minimum number of tournaments (or a minimum number of hands, if we are talking about cash games), and after you fulfill these conditions, and you have good game statistics, then they take you to the main team. I started going to training and I immediately did not like one moment, after which I immediately stopped working with them. The coach gave me the task to watch a video of a game session of one of the participants of this fund, in which they, together with the coach, analyze mistakes. In those situations when this player won hands, but at the same time made absolutely reckless decisions, the trainer did not say a word to him, although in these situations the player was simply lucky. And in those situations when this player lost hands, the phrase of the coach was heard: "Well, I would have done it differently ...". After that I realized for myself that there is no specific scheme for winning in poker and no coach will teach you this because such a scheme does not exist in nature. If you made a decision and lost then next time you just need to do it differently, that's all, that's the point of all those trainings that coaches in these funds offer. And it's not even that you need to split the winnings 50/50 (although I think this is right, since they offer full training and give you a bankroll that you will play on, i.e. you do not need to invest anything there except your time and effort), but the fact is that they will not teach me anything there that I do not know or that I can learn myself. They do not have a super secret that will teach you to win, everything is much simpler, you play and learn from your mistakes. Everything that I wrote above is my personal opinion, but I think it is very close to the truth and to reality.
I don't agree with you about the cash cow, because they provide all the conditions for the game and give you money to play, you just need to play. In your case, this option can be used as a start, in order to learn everything they teach there and earn your own personal bankroll, and then just leave them and play with your earned money. A friend once suggested that I start a business in life on the following terms: he completely creates the conditions for work and invests money in the development of this business, and I just needed to go to work every day and work. He suggested splitting the profit 50/50, just like they offer in these poker funds. So I realized for myself that such a scheme of cooperation is also common in ordinary everyday life.
 
dreamer13

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Setting clear, achievable goals for each session can help you stay focused and motivated. These goals should be process-oriented, not outcome-oriented.Instead of setting a goal to win a certain amount of money, set a goal to make the best decision possible in every hand.This will help you focus on the long-term process and stay motivated during the inevitable setbacks.Dwelling on past mistakes or worrying about future outcomes can lead to bad decisions.If you find your mind wandering, take a deep breath and refocus on your current hand.
 
pep12343

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There are great advantages and I will try to explain them.
1) since it is a stranger's money, you can play with greater peace of mind. Even if you don't believe it in good players who do not have a million-dollar balance, this produces better gameplay.
2) although you do not see it as an advantage, being able to play tournaments with a higher buy-in/prize produces the possibility of winning more profits and at the same time facing fewer bad players who will ruin a tournament for you due to the simple variance (only the amount decreases, in all tournaments there are bad players)
3) you do not lose, it is well known that the variance of poker forces you to lose 80% of the time, this can greatly affect the bankroll of certain players but when playing with other people's money it does not happen
4) Having support is a sign that you are doing things well, and in the future when you are ready both mentally and economically you will take the leap to becoming independent.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some advantages, but in my opinion those are enough.
Obviously there are also disadvantages.
 
Tero

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The coach gave me the task to watch a video of a game session of one of the participants of this fund, in which they, together with the coach, analyze mistakes. In those situations when this player won hands, but at the same time made absolutely reckless decisions, the trainer did not say a word to him, although in these situations the player was simply lucky. And in those situations when this player lost hands, the phrase of the coach was heard: "Well, I would have done it differently ...". After that I realized for myself that there is no specific scheme for winning in poker and no coach will teach you this because such a scheme does not exist in nature. If you made a decision and lost then next time you just need to do it differently, that's all, that's the point of all those trainings that coaches in these funds offer. And it's not even that you need to split the winnings 50/50 (although I think this is right, since they offer full training and give you a bankroll that you will play on, i.e. you do not need to invest anything there except your time and effort), but the fact is that they will not teach me anything there that I do not know or that I can learn myself. They do not have a super secret that will teach you to win, everything is much simpler, you play and learn from your mistakes.
I think any coaching that this type of co-operation provides should be very active, and not just "Go through our training materials".
I don't agree with you about the cash cow, because they provide all the conditions for the game and give you money to play, you just need to play. In your case, this option can be used as a start, in order to learn everything they teach there and earn your own personal bankroll, and then just leave them and play with your earned money. A friend once suggested that I start a business in life on the following terms: he completely creates the conditions for work and invests money in the development of this business, and I just needed to go to work every day and work. He suggested splitting the profit 50/50, just like they offer in these poker funds. So I realized for myself that such a scheme of cooperation is also common in ordinary everyday life.
What your friend suggested sound similar to franchising. It is simple way (but often not cheap) to get started but not that great in long term.
When you apply this to poker it becomes more blurry, but basically it is better business for the stable as long as both parties honor the agreement. So even if you would be a winning player from the start they would skim money of you long enough to make a profit from your work.

1) since it is a stranger's money, you can play with greater peace of mind. Even if you don't believe it in good players who do not have a million-dollar balance, this produces better gameplay.
1) I do not think so. Playing with someone else's money is like taking a loan for playing. You still have to pay it back, and if this doesn't concern the player then I don't know what will.
 
dimon4ik89

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I think any coaching that this type of co-operation provides should be very active, and not just "Go through our training materials".

What your friend suggested sound similar to franchising. It is simple way (but often not cheap) to get started but not that great in long term.
When you apply this to poker it becomes more blurry, but basically it is better business for the stable as long as both parties honor the agreement. So even if you would be a winning player from the start they would skim money of you long enough to make a profit from your work.


1) I do not think so. Playing with someone else's money is like taking a loan for playing. You still have to pay it back, and if this doesn't concern the player then I don't know what will.
I described it briefly so that you would understand what I personally did not like, unless of course you had no experience of cooperation with such funds. This was the very first task, I was required to watch this video and take notes on it. All further coaching there is very active, but not for me and not in my case. This training is good and useful for those people who are new to poker and who have not yet fully understood the meaning and versatility of this game, have not learned to feel it. Before starting cooperation, I corresponded with them for about a week. I told my poker story (I have been in the poker industry for 15 and a half years, of which about 4 years I worked as a dealer, some time I worked as a cashier and administrator, the rest of the time I periodically played, sometimes live poker, sometimes online poker). After our conversation, I was asked the question: "Why don't I play with my own money?" I told him about my series of failures in online poker, after which the coach answered me: "The whole reason for your failures is variance, learn to overcome it and everything will be fine for you." I am grateful to him for this, now I understand that in principle I am doing everything right, I just need to be patient and play a lot in order to overcome variance.
What my friend suggested is not exactly franchising, it is more like a regular partnership. In franchising, a person or enterprise must constantly pay for what works under a certain franchise. I did not have to pay for anything, here, on the contrary, my friend had to pay constantly, and negotiate with many different people in order for this business to exist. All that was required of me was to invest physical labor and spend my time, that is why there was an offer to split the profits 50/50. The principle is exactly the same as in poker funds: you spend time and effort, and the fund takes on the material side and the time and effort spent on your training (for which, again, you do not pay anything). I think in both cases everything is fair.
You wrote: "they will take money from you long enough to make a profit from your work." Well, why long enough? If you are a profitable player, you can terminate the contract with them at any time. As far as I know, this clause is spelled out in contracts in many poker funds.
What can I say about franchising. You probably know what McDonald's is. So this corporation operates on a franchising system. "As of the end of 2022, 40,275 restaurants operated under the McDonald's trademark, 95% of which were franchised." That is, if so many restaurants operate on such a system, then it is beneficial to both parties. I think if you study this topic carefully, you can find enough similar examples. I just never did this, I heard about McDonald's once and now I remembered it when the conversation turned to franchising.
 
Tero

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Thank you for such a lenghtly reply.
What my friend suggested is not exactly franchising, it is more like a regular partnership. In franchising, a person or enterprise must constantly pay for what works under a certain franchise. I did not have to pay for anything, here, on the contrary, my friend had to pay constantly, and negotiate with many different people in order for this business to exist. All that was required of me was to invest physical labor and spend my time, that is why there was an offer to split the profits 50/50.
Not exactly franchising but close. In franchising you have to pay your initial investment + fees along the way. They may even dictate in their contract that you can buy supplies only from certain vendors which they (may or may not) control also. So you might end up paying more ways than one.

If you really think of it what your friend suggested is not that different. True, you do not make any monetary investments, and the risk is on your friend. But in the long term this changes. Eventually this business should turn profitable so it can maintain itself through its own cashflow. Otherwise there would be no point to continue.
So when that day comes (more money is coming in than going out) your agreement looks more like a franchise. The amount of work your friend has to put in is probably smaller than it was in the beginning. However, you work the same amount. So you are paying with your work and get half of the profits. The other half is more or less passive income to your friend.
You wrote: "they will take money from you long enough to make a profit from your work." Well, why long enough? If you are a profitable player, you can terminate the contract with them at any time.
The terms that I've seen so far have minimum contract length which could be 12-18 months. If a player is profitable from the start they do skim money of him long enough.
 
dimon4ik89

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Thank you for such a lenghtly reply.

Not exactly franchising but close. In franchising you have to pay your initial investment + fees along the way. They may even dictate in their contract that you can buy supplies only from certain vendors which they (may or may not) control also. So you might end up paying more ways than one.

If you really think of it what your friend suggested is not that different. True, you do not make any monetary investments, and the risk is on your friend. But in the long term this changes. Eventually this business should turn profitable so it can maintain itself through its own cashflow. Otherwise there would be no point to continue.
So when that day comes (more money is coming in than going out) your agreement looks more like a franchise. The amount of work your friend has to put in is probably smaller than it was in the beginning. However, you work the same amount. So you are paying with your work and get half of the profits. The other half is more or less passive income to your friend.

The terms that I've seen so far have minimum contract length which could be 12-18 months. If a player is profitable from the start they do skim money of him long enough.
Perhaps you know more than I do about franchising and business in general, to be honest I'm not even interested in this topic. As for backing funds and poker in general, I think my knowledge is deeper than yours). I corresponded with three backing funds. My friend works as a coach in one of them, and another friend of mine played for the second fund. All these funds are Russian-speaking and the contracts are roughly the same in all of them, except for some nuances. The contract specifies the number of tournaments you need to play. The minimum contract, if I'm not mistaken, includes 3000-4000 tournaments, provided that you play at least 300-400 tournaments per month. If you're always playing in the red and there comes a time when you're in the black, you have the right to break the contract. You can break the contract at the moment when you don't owe the fund anything. These are their terms. There may be funds that you write about, but to be honest I have never encountered them or even heard of them. I will repeat myself once again: I consider the terms of cooperation to be fair regarding the funds and my friend's proposal. I cannot say whether it is profitable or not, since fairness is not always profitable. For me, fairness, respect and honor are always in the foreground. I never put money first.
If you have any questions regarding poker, ask, I will be glad to help. And so I consider the discussion over, I think we have discussed everything. Good luck at the poker tables)!
 
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