Re-shove to a 4-bet shove from early position

[sunirico]

UG raises 3xBB leaving 9xBB stack behind.
Btn calls 3xBB leaving 30xBB behind.
BB 3-bets 9xBB leaving 25xBB behind.
UG shoves all in 12xBB.
Btn calls 9xBB leaving 21xBB behind.

Big Blind wants to reshove all in but is forced to flat call.

Have you seen this scenario before? The poker client allows you only to call or fold all betting buttons and slider unavailable.

I initially thought it must be a software glitch but this does not seem to be specific to any one poker room but seems to be enforced across the board. Does this mean there is some poker rule that states you can re-raise another raise to your hearts content unless it's a shove from the short stack in early position as a response to your 3-bet. Sounds stupid but that is the rule it would seem.

Can anyone please shed some light on this phenomenon. Why is this restriction in place? Would it help to raise large enough to cover the short stack risking him to fold instead of taking the initiative? But will this allow the rest of us to continue the action?

The result is not favourable, whereas your reshove would put the button to a decision he might fold and you could successfully isolate the other player or he could decide to call and pay us off which now grants them a peak at the flop before they decide. None of which is good news for our crippled hero.

 

[WVHillbilly]

The problem in this case is that UG didn't have enough left to reopen the betting when he shoved. UG only shoves for 3BB more. He would have needed to have an 18BB stack for his reshove to reopen betting in this case.

Had BB only min raised to 6BB and UG then shoved to 12BB it would have reopened the betting and BB could have reshoved.

 

[sunirico]

The problem in this case is that UG didn't have enough left to reopen the betting when he shoved. UG only shoves for 3BB more. He would have needed to have an 18BB stack for his reshove to reopen betting in this case.

Had BB only min raised to 6BB and UG then shoved to 12BB it would have reopened the betting and BB could have reshoved.

I am not sure I follow what you are saying. Lets add the starting stacks to the scenario.

UG starts the hand with 12xBB
Btn starts the hand with 33xBB
BB starts the hand with 34xBB

UG raises 3xBB leaving 9xBB stack behind.
Btn calls 3xBB leaving 30xBB behind.
BB 3-bets 9xBB leaving 25xBB behind.
UG shoves all in 12xBB.
Btn calls 9xBB (3+9=12BB) leaving 21xBB behind.

BB needs to call 3xBB (9+3=12BB) which still leaves 22xBB behind for a side pot with Btn why can't he re-shove here to cover Btn for all his chips?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Because UTG's shove is not enough to reopen the betting. UTG is basically calling BBs 3bet to 9BB and raising only 3BBs more, which is not enough to reopen the betting for BB to reshove. If UTG had started with a larger stack (15BBs or more) his shove would have been enough to allow BB to reshove.

 

[sunirico]

Because UTG's shove is not enough to reopen the betting. UTG is basically calling BBs 3bet to 9BB and raising only 3BBs more, which is not enough to reopen the betting for BB to reshove. If UTG had started with a larger stack (15BBs or more) his shove would have been enough to allow BB to reshove.

Am I following you correctly? In order to reopen the betting the raise needs to be double the previous raise or more.

For example

Villain raises 3xBB, Hero 3-bets 6xBB (9xBB), Villain 4-bet shoves 6xBB (15xBB) betting reopened and hero can raise

but

Villain raises 3xBB, Hero 3-bets 6xBB (9xBB), Villain 4-bet shoves 5xBB (14xBB) betting closed and hero cannot raise but can only call


Then am I correct that in our original scenario BB should've 3-bet 4xBB to 7xBB (instead of the 6xBB to 9xBB) which would've left UTG 5xBB to reopen betting with his shove?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Not necessarily double. The rule is it has to be at least equal to the increment of the last raise. So for a bet to 3x and a 3bet to 9x, the 4bet would have to be 15x (9x - 3x = 6x, 9x + 6x = 15x) Since the player UTG had 12x to start and only 9x remaining after his 3x open if BB had 3bet to 6x and UTG shove would have reopened the betting and allowed BB to reshove 4bet.

 

[sunirico]

So to simplify things if I ensure that I don't re-raise more than half the short stack's remaining chips, anticipating a shove, this should allow me to re-shove over him.

Thank you for your time and these insights, I would've remained oblivious of my part in this conundrum nor that I possessed the means to prevent its occurrence.

I feel this strategy should have a name. You are roping the bystander in first to fatten the pot with an easy flat to the short stack's shove before you finally isolate and he is forced to submit to your fold equity.

This can be a very profitable scenario to construct but we should also be weary not to fall trap to it if we are caught out of position to the constructor.

I think we have 3 options here once you've identified what's happening;
i) you can fold and get out of the way
ii) you can flat but be prepared to call if they re-shove or
iii) if you think u can get them to fold you may attempt to interrupt their plan and isolate yourself.

Either way call and fold is a mistake.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I also find that you'll actually get more folds if a reg realizes by your bet sizing what you're doing. I've used this in the past to get all-in against shorties with wide ranges with less than stellar hands. Example: We raise with AK from MP, reg on BTN flats, shorty in the BB flats. We miss the flop, BB checks and we bet half the shorties remaining stack rather than half the pot. The reg will generally be forced to fold because he usually knows that the shorty is fairly likely to shove and that we have sized our bet to allow us to shove over when he does.