Deal em' out - yes or no?

[K_Kahne_Fan]

When a player asks to see the rest of the board after a hand is folded to, wouldn't this change the dynamics of the next (and future) deal? Should it be allowed? If the cards were to be placed back on the deck as they came off it would be one thing, but typically they are mucked in with the rest of the cards and then shuffled out of the order they would have been in. I know it sounds like a miniscule question, but is it really if it could effect a tournament or even just one night's play?

I used to like to deal em', but after I started thinking about the fact it could change the game, I'm not so sure anymore.

 

[KingCurtis]

for somereason i have to see it!

 

[Katie Kards]

It could change the game, that's true. But it's equally likely that it changes it for better as it is that it changes it for worse.

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

But should it be allowed to change it at all? I can see a misdeal changing the outcome, but those are flukes and generally unavoidable. Dealing cards out is can be avoided.

 

[xtreme_calibur]

if after all this takes place the deck is shuffled thoroughly, does it really matter anywho? i play live poker 3 nights a week, and its never been brought up this way. i fold a flush draw and ask to see the rest just wanting to know if i wouldve hit my flush, the cards are then shuffled and shuffled, and then shuffled again. i personally wouldnt think it could make a difference at all, but thats just me.

 

[aliengenius]

No, but not for the reason you stated.

The shuffle is designed to randomize the deck, it doesn't matter what order the cards ended up in. When I am dealing I sometimes "mix up" the muck with my right hand, sort of in an absent minded/something to do kind of way, since I am covering it with my right hand already. Also, when the cards are "consolidated" (muck, discards, and deck stub) after the river card is dealt, the dealer should probably the pulling some cards out to scoop up the remaining folds, so as not to have the last fold on the bottom of the pile, and exposing it when they front the cards for the next deal. A lot of times the dealer will simply "wash" the cards before the next shuffle.

The REAL reason you don't rabbit hunt is because it slows down the game. If you do it when one person wants to see the next card, pretty soon someone else is going to want to see a card, and before you know it you have to deal all five cards to the river for every single hand, regardless of when the hand is actually over.

Just have a strict "no rabbiting" policy, and pretty soon players will stop asking.

Besides, thinking in terms of "what if" is essentially being results oriented, which isn't how you want to train yourself to think about poker anyway.

 

[calibanboy]

I used to like to deal em', but after I started thinking about the fact it could change the game, I'm not so sure anymore.

Dear oh dear, butterfly effect coming on here.

be Careful to go out tonight, if you choose the wrong bar to go in you may end up meeting a girl, having sex, getting married, have kids, go broke due to college fees etc. What you should do is stay in, play poker online and go broke. Saves a lot of time and heartache.

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

Dear oh dear, butterfly effect coming on here.

be Careful to go out tonight, if you choose the wrong bar to go in you may end up meeting a girl, having sex, getting married, have kids, go broke due to college fees etc. What you should do is stay in, play poker online and go broke. Saves a lot of time and heartache.

aiiight smarty

I'm not overly paranoid about life... just wondering about the deal in poker. If you're talking about things happening for a reason, then maybe we were supposed to see the deal so that the cards will be shuffled/dealt differently so that you get the cards you were "meant" to be dealt

And to those saying the cards are "washed" and or shuffled several times, granted it will shuffle them very well, but they would have been shuffled that way anyway, now they are in a different order though.

 

[Vollycat]

I consider myself a fairly rational person and I ENJOY relishing in the concepts and what if's in poker...but thoughts like this have never occured to me.

You are asking that by rabbit hunting, it may re-randomize the deck in a way to change the aspect of the game (given a proper shuffle)?

I'm sorry man, but even trying to consider that as a 'concern' is about to give me an aneurism. I'm baffled.

I think overcalling with AJo with an A on the board is a little more troublesome in my game then worrying about if the cards that have been dealt me may have been set upon a different course in the universe because someone at the table wanted to rabbit hunt the previous hand. But that's me.

 

[OzExorcist]

The REAL reason you don't rabbit hunt is because it slows down the game.

Exactly - and it seems to me it's the same players who complain about not getting to rabbit hole that also seem to complain about the blinds going up too quickly. Seemingly without irony. Go figure

 

[Flops'm&Bets'm]

If you had wanted to see the rest of the board, by all sense of fairness,
it should be safe to say if you want to see the hand out, you have to pay to view!..
I recently watched Poker After Dark, Phil Laak vs. Shaun Shiekan and The Unabomber wanted the dealer to show the turn and river cards..
It didn't happen and the muck got washed and the next hand dealt.

As mentioned in a Home Game or a Live game it would slow things down and by rights ahould not be permitted.

Pay to play and Poker is in that genre.
If there was a question of the deck being compromised then a 'Fresh Pack' can be requested, and a Director can examine the suspect deck.

 

[nevadanick]

Rabbit online may or may not give the accurate cards that would have played out to showdown. Depends on the site, their shuffle process and their software.

On pokerstars, the entire 52 card deck is set after the shuffle and remains unchanged throughout that hand. You would get an accurate rabbit in this case.

Full Tilt shuffles differently. They only select at random the number of cards required for the hole cards. After that, the software calls for cards as needed. For holdem, it would ask for 3 for the flop. In an eight seat stud game it would ask for 24 hole cards. The remaining cards are requested as needed, selected at that moment by the RNG, their algorithm and entropy requirements which can and will change that specific random request at various moments in time. Rabbitting in this case would be useless and misleading.

poker sites usually have their shuffle procedures detailed on their site information. PS and FT do. If the above doesn't make basic sense, take the time to search the web (Google works well) for details on pokerroom RNG's (true and pseudo), algorithms and entropy. An understanding of these terms is required to better understand how online poker is dealt and how true random selections are verified and protected.

If all else fails, just enjoy the game. You didn't pay to see the cards, so why worry about what 'might' have been there. That would be a new game called Pokeralmost.

 

[OzExorcist]

A deck is sufficiently random after 5 riffles, and after 7 it is truly random. Most poker rooms riffle 5 times to save time. However at higher limit games they will riffle upwards of 7 times.

The standard process we use when dealing (and it's the same one I've seen in casinos here too) is:

Riffle, riffle, strip, riffle, cut

You're right though, the actual card is meaningless: a decent player will know that they were only 19.5% to hit their flush on the river. Whether the card was a spade or a diamond won't change that.

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

Y'all are funny, it's not the end of my world and I don't stay up nights thinking about this. I'm always thinking and this went through my mind once and when I found this site I figured "who better to pose this Q to...?" ...maybe I was wrong

Thanks 3 Olives, that helps...

...A deck is sufficiently random after 5 riffles, and after 7 it is truly random. Most poker rooms riffle 5 times to save time. However at higher limit games they will riffle upwards of 7 times....

 

[aliengenius]

I cannot decide what is more absurd:

1. This thread
2. The fact I read the entire thing

Numerous studies have been done on what it takes to randomize a deck of cards. People much smarter then me have tested and retested these theories and found them to be true.

A deck is sufficiently random after 5 riffles, and after 7 it is truly random. Most poker rooms riffle 5 times to save time. However at higher limit games they will riffle upwards of 7 times.

Rabit or rabit...the cards are random if shuffled properly

If you need more information on shuffling and the randomization of it try reading this information on Wikipedia

Uh, not sure where you play, but that procedure simply does not exist in any card room I know of. See below.

The standard process we use when dealing (and it's the same one I've seen in casinos here too) is:

Riffle, riffle, strip, riffle, cut

^^^that's how it's done kids. The old procedure was 'riffle, strip, riffle, riffle, cut' (see Malmuth, et. al.), and a few places/dealers still do it that way, but for the most part it's just as Oz stated.

 

[KingNothing4]

ya i think it can change the game so i say dont deal em out. y do they have to see wat would come? if it comes and they woulda won they would be pissed and if it comes and they lost then they r happy they made the right play....but the play was made so wat does the past matter? and ya it changes the order of the cards...i believe some people go about it calling bets to "see the next card" so if u r wondering wats comin out next and just have to know, jus call to see the next card...

 

[calibanboy]

There are two schools of thought.

1) Fate/Destiny: What will be will be.
or
2) as quoted by Henry Miller "We create our fate every Day"

In essence, you believe in the second when you fold your cards. You believe that folding is the best long term action and will make you a winning playerl........But then you are worried that you may have altered your FATE by folding???

Weird.

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

calibanboy,

Not altering your fate by folding; altering your fate with the rabit hunt changing the next shuffle/deal and changing your cards from what they would've/should've been. No matter how you shuffle them, if they're taken out of order by a rabbit hunt on the previous hand, the cards dealt next would not be the same as they would've been without the hunt.

 

[gondorf]

People who I have spoken to say the reason rabbit hunting is not and should not be allowed is that it reduces the amount of unknowns, thus making it easier to put players (or not) on hands they have folded and getting a free read. If you haven't paid for your card you don't deserve to see it. Any substance to this?

Experienced practitioners of the perfect faro shuffle can riffle a deck a number of times and have it set again.

Paul Zarro could do it without the perfect faro shuffle.

 

[phatjose]

Dealing out is a fairly common occurrence in my Thursday night game. Although to be fair, it's fairly small stakes (only a $20 buy in a 15-20 person glorified sit-n-go). The thing I notice the most is that people that dumped a drawing hand wanting to see if they would have made it (ie 4 to a flush on the flop, or more commonly a gutshot). So sometimes it can be beneficial to gain information on another player. Although, I've been playing with these people every week for almost a year, so when this happens I just tell them to stfu cause they didn't hit any hand, they folded.

As far as changing the ways the cards are coming out, almost every place I have played at live uses at least 2 decks. By the time the second deck is ready to be used it has been over shuffled anyway.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

I believe it depends on the situation i mean i would originally give it to a guy whos asking after a really tough lay down. But then it goes oh he got it why cant i say it, i agree have a strict policy and i agree with calinboy, paranoi a disease u know.

 

[TubaMark316]

Whether it be a home game, live cash game or live tournament...

I NEVER wanna see the next cards dealt whether I ask or someone else does...

It takes away the purpose of the game...

You're folding the hand because you think you don't have it...BUT you ask to see the next card because you wanna know if you would have sucked out and beat me...then you see it and get all pissed and punch everyone in the face...
Kidding about the last part...


But I vote no...don't deal em.
Keep them guessing...

 

[arahel_jazz]

My viewpoint: Either you pay for it (or they do) or let it go. No Wabbit hunting allowed.


I don't show either.

 

[shawn-me5]

No because next they would want to see your cards.

 

[OzExorcist]

Not altering your fate by folding; altering your fate with the rabit hunt changing the next shuffle/deal and changing your cards from what they would've/should've been. No matter how you shuffle them, if they're taken out of order by a rabbit hunt on the previous hand, the cards dealt next would not be the same as they would've been without the hunt.

Erm... the point of shuffling is to randomise the order of the cards. The card that was (or 'should' have been) on top of the deck at the end of the previous hand should have no bearing on what you get dealt in the next hand.

If rabbit hunting is somehow affecting the hands you get dealt, I'd say you've got a problem with your shuffling process, not with rabbit hunting.

This thread is starting to remind me of the people who complain that I've dealt them the same hand twice in a row, as though I've got any say in it