Why open T9s and 98s in LJ?

[turnupthebb]

I see a lot of opening range charts that think T9s is a no brainer open raise in LJ both full ring live and 6max online.

But the T in T9s is probably going to be mostly dominated which is bad. All the broadways with a T dominate T9s. So the T gives you kind of reverse implied odds? Which is very bad. So in a way you only have 1 card to make a pair with, the 9.

You of course also have straight and flush potential but i don't think it's seems good to open raise a hand just hoping for a straight or flush draw because that happens rarely and you might not get paid off anyway plus your flush could be dominated.

So it just seems like a bad hand to open raise with in LJ becuse there are many left behind to act which means bigger chance of being dominated I think.

98s is kind of same problem but I think it does a bit better than T9s because broadways are almost always played and they dominate T9s but not 98s.

I also see many solver charts saying to open raise J9s, J8s in LJ. Same problem there becuase J will be so frequently dominated.

 

[pentazepam]

It's not limit hold'em so you don't play T9s for top pair primarily. It's nice to have straight possibilities when your opponent has a set or top two on a board with Q and J.

With your reasoning, you should not raise low AXs hands in early position because your top pair is dominated.

On lower levels, you can get away with just playing premium hands but if a thinking player notices that you can't have certain hands or cover some boards they attack you relentlessly.

 

[turnupthebb]

It's not limit hold'em so you don't play T9s for top pair primarily. It's nice to have straight possibilities when your opponent has a set or top two on a board with Q and J.

With your reasoning, you should not raise low AXs hands in early position because your top pair is dominated.

On lower levels, you can get away with just playing premium hands but if a thinking player notices that you can't have certain hands or cover some boards they attack you relentlessly.

Good answer, i like it but I still am unsure what to really think, so I will respond with some of my doubts that remain.

I knew about balancing for postflop already, that's why GTO solvers say to open raise 55-22 half the time or around that frequency, just so we don't completely miss low connected boards. But I think there are very few players who can confidently notice this kind of unbalance and then exploit it. I think some would exploit it as a default strategy where they just assume most LJ players don't open those low hands. So personally I don't think it's worth worrying about balance in this situation at least. Maybe on pokerstars because everyone is using HUD and so many regs there, but if you play live or on ggpoker then there are so many recs and it just seems unlikely that one of the regs will notice I'm not opening T9s and 98s in LJ when I open it in HJ. It just seems too unlikely imho but I could be wrong and will learn the hard way when I climb to higher stakes.

I also think it was interesting what you said because I wrote in OP I think it can't be worth opening a hand if it's only for straight and flush potential because they happen rarely compared to pairs, but you're saying it is worth it. I'm not quite sure what to believe just yet.

I've heard quite a few poker coaches from various training sites say they wouldn't flat an open with a low suited connector because they will be dominated. So those coaches don't think it's worth calling just for straight and flush draws.

And about your comparison to AXs, some GTO solvers actually don't open A2s in LJ. I haven't looked so much at solvers for full ring but I know some training sites for live cash only open AA-ATs and A5s UTG.

But T9s and 98s seems to be in basically every single chart for UTG both full ring and 6max. Even when A9s-A6s, A4s-A2s are not in the opening range.

So that just makes it seem like T9s and 98s are actually very strong hands and not borderline opens.

Another question that comes to my mind is if T9s and 98s are good to open just for straight and flush then why not low suited connectors as well? T9s and 98s are in almost every single chart in every position from almost every training site but not low suited connector.

 

[LUKADONCICMVP]

u play cause it´s suited and have connectors and to not only play premiums.

 

[dannystanks]

10,9s has 54% equity vs. any two random cards. Against the range of 10,10+, A-10s+, A-10+, all broadways suited and off suits, it has 34% equity. So against this range you are a 2-1 dog so it’s not as bad as you think when you say this hand is dominated.
Even if you just get called by K10, Q10, and J10 you still have 30% equity in the hand.
Against 22-66 you have the equity lead on these hands.
If your opponent is calling you with a 45% range, the 10,9s has 47% equity.

This is an extremely playable hand and if you are folding it just because you think you will be dominated when someone calls you, you are probably folding way too much. If you are thinking 10-9s is not that strong then you can go on flopzilla and play around with all these hands. Here is something interesting also, AKs vs 55 the AK has 48% equity to win, the 10-9s vs 55, the 10-9s has 52% equity to win.

 

[Funtast]

I see a lot of opening range charts that think T9s is a no brainer open raise in LJ both full ring live and 6max online.

But the T in T9s is probably going to be mostly dominated which is bad. All the broadways with a T dominate T9s. So the T gives you kind of reverse implied odds? Which is very bad. So in a way you only have 1 card to make a pair with, the 9.

You of course also have straight and flush potential but i don't think it's seems good to open raise a hand just hoping for a straight or flush draw because that happens rarely and you might not get paid off anyway plus your flush could be dominated.

So it just seems like a bad hand to open raise with in LJ becuse there are many left behind to act which means bigger chance of being dominated I think.

98s is kind of same problem but I think it does a bit better than T9s because broadways are almost always played and they dominate T9s but not 98s.

I also see many solver charts saying to open raise J9s, J8s in LJ. Same problem there becuase J will be so frequently dominated.

Think of it that way:
You want to be balanced.
You need "bluffs" so that your opponents don´t simply fold everything but nutty hands against your openings from UTG.
When I see an opponent raising 8-10% from UTG, would I raise him with anything weaker then AQo+, JJ+? No I wouldn´t and I also wouldn´t call him with hands that are normally an easy call.
Your range from UTG is still merged. That means not polarized. That means you pick all the nutty hands, all the good hands, and some borderline hands like 9T suited.
K5suited is also a borderline raise from LJ.
So are the smaller suited aces or ATo and KTo.

However if you play against braindead opponents, just play the nitstyle like 13%Vpip/10%Pfr/2%3b. It still works.

 

[SpanRmonka]

To add to what others have mentioned, another basic reason is in the number of times you may just win the pot outright! When combined with picking up the flush or straight draw on the flop, C betting and taking the pot, this is likely enough to swing these hands into being an open. The suited connectors give you more chances to continue your aggression post flop, like say 2nd pair with a flush draw and back door straight draw too.

If you raise ATo for example, and hit T as 2nd pair, its harder to have back doors and full draws to go with it.

Possibly the other reason is that you may be more likely to win a bigger pot, when you do hit your straight or flush, as your hand is a little more disguised.

 

[Baoka]

I felt 98 was too great, with high connectivity to other cards to make up lobbies

 

[takinitSLEAZEE]

I think the main reason for playing these hands are mainly due to the fact that most everyone else isn't. It's not necessarily "out of the box" thinking but these are two of the most played "non-premiums" in the deck, imo. Quite versatile as well. They've helped me crack AA, KK, and so on, in position mostly.