What defines a good LAG player?

[NineLions]

Maybe storm or joose can answer this. I've re-read some of the threads where the two of you have made good comments about this.

I have a bit of a feel for loosening up at the end of a tourney; knowing that weaker hands might win because there's fewer players, play more flops, pressure the small stacks, pressure if you sense weakness, take advantage of position.

But that's when the table is short and the blinds are high.

What about when the table is full and the blinds small?

You can still take advantage of position, pressure if you sense weakness, but do you also fold a larger percentage of hands that a TAG player might fold?



I guess I'm asking for two reasons;

1) I'm using PokerAce at the cash tables and see some pretty high VP$IP, and wonder how many are playing LAG and how many just don't know they're doing. I guess one thing would be to check the aggression factors. What about the showdown percentage? Would a good LAG player have lower showdown percentages than someone who just plays too many hands?

2) I'd like to mix up my own game some more, especially when I find the table tight. So far in my attempts I've gotten myself into trouble with 2nd best hands and missed draws. My suspicion is that I may need to be even more aggressive if I'm playing LAG than TAG but also fold a lot more marginal holdings postflop to resistance. Generally try to win a lot more small pots early.


Any comments/suggestions from those more experienced?

 

[ChuckTs]

The way I see it, a good LAG player is just one who takes advantage of all the small pots that no one else wants to fight for. They more often then not will bet when checked to or stick a raise in when they sense weakness.

They win tons of these small pots because of this aggression, and get paid off big time when they either actually pick up a monster hand preflop, or when one of their weird holdings hits a flop hard. Of course they know when to fold 2nd best hands too; a bad LAG player on the other hand will not know when to let up with the aggression, and find themselves with the 2nd best hand at showdown too often.

What about when the table is full and the blinds small?

You can still take advantage of position, pressure if you sense weakness, but do you also fold a larger percentage of hands that a TAG player might fold?

Fold more hands than a TAG? huh?

 

[NineLions]

The way I see it, a good LAG player is just one who takes advantage of all the small pots that no one else wants to fight for. They more often then not will bet when checked to or stick a raise in when they sense weakness.

They win tons of these small pots because of this aggression, and get paid off big time when they either actually pick up a monster hand preflop, or when one of their weird holdings hits a flop hard. Of course they know when to fold 2nd best hands too; a bad LAG player on the other hand will not know when to let up with the aggression, and find themselves with the 2nd best hand at showdown too often.



Fold more hands than a TAG? huh?

Thanks Chuck. I remember joose saying something about it being better done in position.

And, that's fold a larger percentage, thinking that they might get a marginal holding more often than a TAG who plays an AJ and on a J92 flop, as opposed to a LAG playing a 97 hitting a 9.

 

[ChuckTs]

Thanks Chuck. I remember joose saying something about it being better done in position.

Having position is a great advantage, but I thought I'd add a point:

LAG players also get an advantage from playing out of position. Say if a TAG player raises in MP, and a LAG calls from the BB. If something like 973 flops, the LAG player can lead into that flop and might get a lot of hands to fold (like overcards for ex). It's unlikely the TAG has hit that flop, and could very well have hit the LAG dead-on. He could be playing 97 for all we know. He could be bluffing or he could be leading with his monster. That's one great advantage that LAGs have is that they're so damn hard to read. A loose player can hit a flop of any texture since his hand range is so big.

So being out of position can actually be a good thing because by betting out on weird flops like that, the LAG can steal a lot of pots.

And, that's fold a larger percentage, thinking that they might get a marginal holding more often than a TAG who plays an AJ and on a J92 flop, as opposed to a LAG playing a 97 hitting a 9.

I still don't understand what you're getting at with that point; if we folded more hands than a TAG player preflop, we wouldn't be LAG would we?

 

[Stefanicov]

The biggest thing with a good lag player is the ability to fold a hand. tht makes the difference between good and bad. Also what chuck said bout taking down the small pots.
Another good lag trait is knowing when a player is making a play and knowing when to reraise or when to take down a pot uncontested preflop rather thn letting pple c cheap flops

 

[dj11]

I have thought for some time now that what sets a Lag apart is that he is playing my cards. He knows that most of the time, his opps, me for ex, won't have hit anything, and he bets it that way. a Tag player feels the need to have something respectable in his own hand most of the time that he enters a hand.

It usually really doesn't matter what you have in your hand, it matters what the other player has. If that is usually nothing, well, the picture paints itself.

 

[stormswa]

a good lag

sorry guys been away last couple day's.

just saw this.

A good lag takes advantage of the table weakness, Position is very important for a solid lag player. They also play out of position real well. They are going to play alot more hands then your normal player but most of their hands will be run in position. They are very aware of what the rest of the table thinks of their play and they will change gears alot. The thing is people that are aware of how many hands they are playing are not going to give them respect when they actually do hit a hand. So the are going to get paid off big when they have the hand.

The other thing is a LAG player can not check when they hit a big hand, like say you are CB'ing like every flop then all of usuden you end up flopping the straight with a hand like 67, you can not check that now or a aware person will know that flop hit you. You have to continue to bet it out just like you would with any other flop.

now early position play even LAG's dont get that involved in but if they are involved they are looking at the flop more then there cards, they are asking themselves what on that board can I represent with my bets. They also do squeeze plays alot, like if someone raises and there is a call in between they will alot of the times raise big there, they are able to sense who everyone is at there tables. The ones they can push out of pots and the ones they cant.

When I play I most likely see about 40- 50% of the flops but most of the times im in position but I have no problem raising under the gun with T-9. The thing is you have to be able to fold your hands when its obvious the flop hit someone. If you cant fold a hand then this style can not be played by you.

 

[NineLions]

I still don't understand what you're getting at with that point; if we folded more hands than a TAG player preflop, we wouldn't be LAG would we?

Oh, I see. No, I meant folding a greater percentage post-flop. LAG would be playing more flops, but I'm assuming folding a larger percentage post-flop than a TAG player.

 

[NineLions]

sorry guys been away last couple day's.

just saw this.

That's okay, it's still new.

The other thing is a LAG player can not check when they hit a big hand, like say you are CB'ing like every flop then all of usuden you end up flopping the straight with a hand like 67, you can not check that now or a aware person will know that flop hit you. You have to continue to bet it out just like you would with any other flop.

So slowplaying, unless it's a real monster that you're representing as just a good hand, is no longer an option.

When I play I most likely see about 40- 50% of the flops but most of the times im in position but I have no problem raising under the gun with T-9. The thing is you have to be able to fold your hands when its obvious the flop hit someone. If you cant fold a hand then this style can not be played by you.

Because you end up with a lot of marginal hands?

So, in PokerAce stats would your showdown percentage and aggression factors be about the same as a TAG player then? Or higher?

 

[mrsnake3695]

Oh, I see. No, I meant folding a greater percentage post-flop. LAG would be playing more flops, but I'm assuming folding a larger percentage post-flop than a TAG player.

Not necessarily. A good LAG player will be raising a good percentage of flops.

 

[joosebuck]

You can still take advantage of position, pressure if you sense weakness, but do you also fold a larger percentage of hands that a TAG player might fold?

when blinds are low it's just not worth it. being TAG early lets you set up an image you can exploit later.

and yes, while position is important in a lot of scenarios, being lag and having confidence in outplaying players out of position is just as important. good LAG is about having the table felt out really well and exploiting peoples' weaknesses.

 

[NineLions]

Not necessarily. A good LAG player will be raising a good percentage of flops.

Hmm, so in statistical terms, an average good TAG player vrs an equivalently good LAG player;

VP$IP - TAG, say 25%, LAG say 45% ?

Preflop raise % - about the same ? (LAG sees more flops but raises about the same % ?)

Postflop aggression - about the same ?

Goes to showdown % - about the same ? This is where I thought the LAG player would see fewer showdowns, either taking the pot down early, or folding to a flop that he thinks hit the other player. Mind you, I'm not an expert on PokerTracker so I don't know how it treats hands won without a showdown.


I figure when I see someone with 45% VP$IP but low preflop raise/aggression and high showdown percentage, they're not LAG, just targets. But I'm not sure about the ones with higher aggression levels.

 

[mrsnake3695]

Hmm, so in statistical terms, an average good TAG player vrs an equivalently good LAG player;

VP$IP - TAG, say 25%, LAG say 45% ?

Preflop raise % - about the same ? (LAG sees more flops but raises about the same % ?)

Postflop aggression - about the same ?

Goes to showdown % - about the same ? This is where I thought the LAG player would see fewer showdowns, either taking the pot down early, or folding to a flop that he thinks hit the other player. Mind you, I'm not an expert on PokerTracker so I don't know how it treats hands won without a showdown.


I figure when I see someone with 45% VP$IP but low preflop raise/aggression and high showdown percentage, they're not LAG, just targets. But I'm not sure about the ones with higher aggression levels.

I think you're missing something here. A good LAG player isn't simply calling and checking, he is betting, raising and reraising. So actually a LAG players is betting more flops than a TAG. If a LAG is playing against a TAG the LAG player can put the TAG on a range of hands. He also knows that the TAG will fold to a big raise without a hand in most cases.

It seems you are concentrating on the Loose part and forgetting about the Aggressive part.

 

[stormswa]

That's okay, it's still new.



So slowplaying, unless it's a real monster that you're representing as just a good hand, is no longer an option.



Because you end up with a lot of marginal hands?

So, in PokerAce stats would your showdown percentage and aggression factors be about the same as a TAG player then? Or higher?

yes you play alot of what a TAG player would consider marginal.


no your aggression will be really high and your showdown should be very low, because you should be taking away alot of pots before showdown or getting away from them before showdown.


as for slowplaying. A Lag player dosent really know that word is on the flop. I dont care if the LAG flops quad aces he does not slowplay that, think about it a Lag bets 15 flops in a row and then all of usuden he checks the flop? warning bells would go up. Thats why lag play is sooo profitable, no one can put you on a hand. But like has been said a good LAG player can also fold mediocre draws and only runs his monster draws.

 

[stormswa]

last thoughts before bed

Like it has been said LAG players play situations more then there cards, because of this I have come up with a senerio that might help. Now lags dont start out playing that style, how can you if you have no clue how your opponents play.

so lets say I'm in seat 3 and seat 1 is a solid TAG player and seat 2 is a horrible loose player, and im of course in seat 3.

I get something like 5h6h in a $300 NL game and we are all full stacked and im on the button. UTG folds and TAG makes it $12 and loose player calls the $12 and I make it $36 total playing the squeeze. Both blinds fold and TAG calls the $24 more, this is what you call 3-betting. Loose player calls making the pot $102 preflop, flop is something like AT2 with two hearts. Not good flop for me at all, the Tag leads out for $36, Tag's do bets like this alot they are called blocking bets, its basicly a bet that says im out of position with a hand please dont raise me. Loose player folds and so what do we do? well the Tag dosent want us to raise so guess what we raise!!!

ok so what are we doing by raising with 6 high? ok we are not bluffing we are sensing the weakness and playing off of it. Now we know he has better hand right now but we also know that if we raise him we might get him off something like KK,QQ,or AK. Also we know that if he has a hand like KT of hearts we might get him off the better draw because he is solid and would fold his draws, now if he has KhQh then no he isnt folding but by betting we will be able to define our hand and figure out exactly what he has.

ok so we jus about 3bet him to $100 and we are in position so we most likely will get it checked to us on turn if the card dosent help him. Think about it we have multiple ways to win, we cant put him on the flush now, remember he is a solid player so I dont think he would chase the flush to our raise so if we hit the heart we can be pretty sure we have best hand, or he could fold and even if he dosent we can get to river on 1 bet just by being in position here.

lets look at it out of position? tons of bad stuff could happen if we lead out we get raised or if we just get called we have to check/fold turn if we dont hit, so we lose one card we could possibly see. And basically if he calls our raise on the flop we can at least put him on AK as the weakest hand he could have so we shutdown, and go into check mode. Most TAGS will not bet the turn because they are scared their TPTK is no good. If we miss the river then we have a choice to bluff it or to fold it, most likely we should fold if we decide not to fire 2nd bullet on turn. I personally would fire turn if another scare card came out like a broadway card, and would check it if it was safe card.

 

[joosebuck]

playing situational poker is a lot more fun than ABC TAG poker. my own personal style is in between TAG and SLAA. also change gears a lot. and love to light 3bet weak-tight tags

 

[NineLions]

Wow, thanks storm. Those last two posts are really great.

The first one clarifys some more what I think Snake has been trying to get through to me; that the aggression has to be higher than a TAG.

And the second with the example of how a LAG thinks and bets is something I'm gonna save on my computer for future reference.