Are there times to bet at at the flop, almost regardless of your hand?

[NineLions]

This thought occurs to me, more often when it's someone elses turn to bet than when it's my turn to bet. Often this happens when I've folded.

I look at the flop and the number of people still in, I find myself thinking to someone, you should bet.


Obviously, I don't know what they have, but just given the situation, I'm thinking they should bet. I think some of the situations are:

- That person raised preflop, I'm expecting a continuation bet

- There are 3 hands in, the first two didn't bet on the flop. Especially when the flop is scary; 2 or 3 of a suit, or a pair in the flop. I'm thinking, no one else showed they have anything, represent that you have something and you might win the pot right there. If they check-raise, fold.


First off, am I wrong in this thinking?

And second, are there other situations like this, maybe on the river especially, where one should be betting, almost regardless of what you hold?

 

[OneMoreBust]

Ive done the same thing countless times. When they listen, it seems they take down the pot a Majority of the time. When they dont listen, it might check through to the turn or river, and by then one of the people in is bound to pick up the pot.

If I am in one of those situations, I will often bet with ATC, but especially with an open ended straight or a flush draw. Even without a made hand, you have value in betting at a pot to get others to fold when you have a draw that will a fair percentage of the time, hit. In hands like this, people with middle pair might put money in on the flop, but they wont put it in after the straight or flush card hits the board.

 

[NineLions]

And what about without a made hand, or even the flush or straight draw?

I guess my expectation is, if you've got position with flop of 3 suited cards or with a pair coming on the flop, if no one else bet at the flop, bet at it anyways even if you don't have the flush/straight/other card paired/pocket pair. Does this make sense? Would you win more outright at this point to offset the times that's you're just building the pot for someone who is slowplaying?


Last night I limped in with T6o as the BB. The flop came 44T. I didn't bet so as not to scare anyone off and it checked around. Turn was another T, someone bet behind me, the others folded and after a pause, trying to indicate hesitation (ie weakness), I called, with the plan of betting big and fast on the river no matter what, hoping he would see it as a bad bluff attempt. Worked pretty well.

Perhaps that's the danger of betting at those types of flops if you don't have the cards.

 

[OneMoreBust]

You can bluff with ATC... the problem is that if there are good players who pick up on this, they can start check raising you and stealing your bet...

That can be good or bad, as you may be able to use that in the future to get more money in the pot with a good hand.


Tangled web, but the answer is, sometimes, situational dependent. You cant say always yes or always no, because a lot of bad players will slow play their top pair, ignoring draws and two pair draws, etc...

 

[medeiros13]

I started reading Phil Hellmuth's book and he actually touches on this subject a little bit. What I've deducted from his words are that you need to have a good read on your opponents in order to do this. His example is Devilfish Elliot...from what Phil says, he'll put all sorts of pressure on you even if he has nothing if he feels like he can force you off a hand. So to some extent, I understand and agree with what you're saying. There are a lot of times when I play where I'll put out a half pot bet (semi bluff) if the hand has been checked down to me. I've managed to win a lot of pots that way. I'm not sure I could be as extreme as Phil portrays Devilfish though...going all in with nothing b/c his read on you is that you'll fold....gah!!!

Your second point about the river...I"m not sure if I agree. If players have been betting all the way to the river and want to check it down...do you really think a small bet is going to put them off the hand. Pot odds alone say call. Now if you tell me you're going to try to pull of a stone cold bluff and put in a large bet, now that's different. Not too many players I've seen have the balls to put in a stone cold bluff on the river in a multipot.

 

[NineLions]

Hmmm, I guess like every other generalized situation, the answer is "it depends".

If I expect someone to bet, given the situation, and they don't, then maybe that means 1) they don't know that it's a good situation for then to bet, or 2) they have something and they're slowplaying it, or 3) they have little or nothing, think maybe they should be betting, but can't bring themselves to do so, or 4) they only bet when they think they might have the best hand.


In a recent game I noticed someone who, almost every time the flop was scary (a pair, 3 suited, 3 connected), he would bet fairly big at it, regardless of his position. Because I noticed it, when I had something I wouldn't be afraid to play since I figured there was a decent chance he was just trying to chase everyone out and take the pot then and there. But, I would only do so when I had a leg to stand on, so he still won a number of those pots. My objective was to try to take him deep when I did have something to offset those preflop bets I was losing.

Maybe he read that advice that says that the person who bets first at a pot usually wins it.

But you're right, medeiros13, other factors come into it. If you read the other players as weak, a position bet at a scary flop might win it. An information bet (say, top pair with a flop of 3 suited to see if your hand is good) is another option. I raised preflop with KK, bet at a flop that included an ace, was reraised, and folded. The raiser showed he had paired the ace.