Strategy when hittion the flop OOP

[ComplexPlaya]

Keeping the title short, this thread is about the best strategy when hitting the flop good OOP against a regular TAG player or even a nit, when THEY raised the pot and not you. And it should apply to micro/low-limits.

I'm wondering because a comment someone made in one of my HA threads and I don't really agree with it.

So basically, I think in my games most people cbet, then shut down and don't double/triple barrel when they missed. And fold to a lot of c/r, I'm trying to exploit that when the board is dangerous and doesn't seem to fit their range.

Therefor when I do make a hand, at least TPGK or 2 pair, sets etc. do you think I'd get more value betting first, maybe getting raised by villain thinking I was bluffing etc. and getting more money in than passively waiting for his cbets, trying to check/raise on the flop/turn? (assuming he's not a very aggressive player of course)

 

[Juniorsdaddy]

I agree that many people c-bet and then shutdown if they miss (I am even guilty of that from time to time). Passive players often give up the pot once they reach their limit, so it is hard to get much more out of them regardless of how the hand is played. I just take the pot down quickly and move to the next hand.

 

[Ubercroz]

It sounds like your plan is to not get value from these guys.

If they cbet then shutdown and you are going to get one pot sized bet.

If you donk before they can cbet now they may shutdown before they can cbet.
I just don't see how donking is going to exploit their tendancy to give you money.
A tight/nitty player will fold if you bet and they miss.

There have been some folks talking about min donking into tags on multiple streets because it seems to induce big bets from folks who might otherwise shutdown.

In general though let them cbet. Call if they double barell a lot raise if it's draw heavy. The best way to exploit people betting too much is to let thm bet.

 

[Ubercroz]

Also why are you playing OOP with worse hands against the PFR? If you are in the hand YOU should be the Preflop raiser, and this situation where you're donking into them should not be coming up often.

Just sayin I don't mind calling IP, but playing OOP sucks.
So stop it.

 

[ComplexPlaya]

I agree that many people c-bet and then shutdown if they miss (I am even guilty of that from time to time). Passive players often give up the pot once they reach their limit, so it is hard to get much more out of them regardless of how the hand is played. I just take the pot down quickly and move to the next hand.

I don't think you should be guilty of that, it's normal. If you would cbet, double/triple barrel all or most the hands you open with, people will be right to call you when they have something, because you make it obvious you're betting with air.

Most people go to the extreme though and stop cbetting after the flop, and alot don't even cbet the flop if they miss it, so that's very exploitable obviously

 

[ComplexPlaya]

It sounds like your plan is to not get value from these guys.

If they cbet then shutdown and you are going to get one pot sized bet.

If you donk before they can cbet now they may shutdown before they can cbet.
I just don't see how donking is going to exploit their tendancy to give you money.
A tight/nitty player will fold if you bet and they miss.

There have been some folks talking about min donking into tags on multiple streets because it seems to induce big bets from folks who might otherwise shutdown.

In general though let them cbet. Call if they double barell a lot raise if it's draw heavy. The best way to exploit people betting too much is to let thm bet.

Ok good point, tho I was talking about people that don't cbet alot, very little even. Someone with a 40-50% flop cbet and 30% turn cbet is not uncommon at all my limits.

I was thinking if betting into them would make them think I'm bluffing (especially since I'm betting/raising alot in general, trying to be pretty aggressive) and they can raise me when they have even a little or nothing, when they normally wouldn't cbet

As for playing OOP, that used to be one of my biggest leaks, I'm fixing that, however there are situations I still think it's right. For instance if you're in the blinds with say 88, 99, TT, do you think you should always 3-bet or fold? Or there are 3 or 4 calls to a raise giving you enough odds, implied or not, even OOP with hands that like multi-way pots.

Or you open and someone 3-bets you, with a decent hand like AQ or middle PP, are you saying you should 3-bet or fold every time?

 

[Ubercroz]

Again it depends on a lot but people at lower stakes 3bet a pretty narrow range so in general if you get 3bet with middle pp then you ought to let it go without some specific reads or stats that say they 3bet light.

I 3bet in the blinds a lot- but I play a very tight range in the blinds so most every hand I play there I am comfortable 3 betting with since I don't particularly want to play OOP.

I have heard like 7% is a pretty solid 3bet range and that's about what I play in the blinds (when someone has opened already).

Obviously you have to adjust to your opponents but in general if you open with the bottom of your range and get 3bet then fold- I would almost rather call a 3bet with middle suited connectors like 78-JT than AQ becase you are so often dominated when you get 3bet (even though that kind of contradicts what I just said about folding the bottom of your range... And I don't advocate playing OOP with JTs in a 3bet pot).

 

[Wes747]

3betting definitely depends on the limit you're playing. At 25nl I don't see much light 3betting, but I'm trying to move up into 50NL and it seems like everyone loves to 3bet.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Or you open and someone 3-bets you, with a decent hand like AQ or middle PP, are you saying you should 3-bet or fold every time?

Ask yourself why is the villian 3-betting?

Is it because he holds a strong hand?

Is it because he thinks I will fold?

At micro-stakes it is almost always the first reason, he holds a very strong hand, he is not exploiting you, he simply holds a strong hand.

Why do you not instantly 4-bet him?.. because you know he holds a strong hand.

Why do you call a 3-bet OOP with a hand you already know is weaker than the range of hands he 3-bets?.. because you simply cannot accept that you would make more money folding than calling.. the answer is too simple and your mind is playing tricks with you. Fold!

When should you stop auto folding all but AA/KK vs a 3bet? .. when your opponent is betting a wider range than just JJ+ AK AQs. This happens when players strat trying to exploit you rather than bet their cards for value. When this happens and people start having 10% 3-bet ranges then you can play back at them with weaker hands or even complete air from time to time.

Until villians widen their 3-bet range you cannot play a 3bet/4bet/5bet game and this put you in the position you are in right now. When someone 3-bets you you have to fold almost everything and you cant accept that to be true. But until your opponents 3bet range widens, AA/KK are the only hands that really play well against it in 100BB pots! You cannot even profitably setmine in a 3bet pot with 100BB stacks.

Run another filter This time for pots where the pot is 3-bet preflop, you call and you are not last to act on the flop.... making or losing money?

Compare that to what happens in pots where you 3-bet, villian calls and you are last to act on the flop.

You are trying to find a solution to a problem that dosent exist. When villian 3-bets and you dont want to 4-bet it is fair to say villian has a hand that is better than yours.

100BB pots deniy drawing odds to most hands when 3-bet because the SPR lowers to under 8.

So you are setting yourself up to play fit or fold postflop. You fit only 30% of the time on average. The other 70% you miss and fold and you are doing this with hands you already know to be weaker than the villians!

You need to understand position and its importance. This is another example of positional awareness.

 

[ComplexPlaya]

Why do you not instantly 4-bet him?.. because you know he holds a strong hand.

Why do you call a 3-bet OOP with a hand you already know is weaker than the range of hands he 3-bets?.. because you simply cannot accept that you would make more money folding than calling.. the answer is too simple and your mind is playing tricks with you. Fold!

When should you stop auto folding all but AA/KK vs a 3bet? .. when your opponent is betting a wider range than just JJ+ AK AQs. This happens when players strat trying to exploit you rather than bet their cards for value. When this happens and people start having 10% 3-bet ranges then you can play back at them with weaker hands or even complete air from time to time.

Until villians widen their 3-bet range you cannot play a 3bet/4bet/5bet game and this put you in the position you are in right now. When someone 3-bets you you have to fold almost everything and you cant accept that to be true. But until your opponents 3bet range widens, AA/KK are the only hands that really play well against it in 100BB pots! You cannot even profitably setmine in a 3bet pot with 100BB stacks.

Run another filter This time for pots where the pot is 3-bet preflop, you call and you are not last to act on the flop.... making or losing money?

Compare that to what happens in pots where you 3-bet, villian calls and you are last to act on the flop.

You know, I do hate it that you're right all the time (kidding)

I am in the red calling 3-bets, I don't know how to filter PT to show when I'm not last to act, but nevertheless I am in the red almost 4 BI's calling 3-bets (I call 26% of the time it seems, so fold to 3-bets 74%)

The peculiar thing is had I folded everytime instead of calling I would be down more, losing just the initial standard 3.5xbb raise. But looking at the hands I guess that's just variation of the small 300 hand size with me calling 3-bets and hitting the flop more than the normal amount. And maybe villains' poor post-flop play.

I'd like to talk about the numbers though, you mentioned 10%, correct me if I'm wrong but I think 10% is 3-betting light some of the time, it means a range of 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo according to poker stove.

In real life I guess that probably means JJ+, AK o/s AQs for value and anything else such as small SC's, any PP etc. for 3-bet light for them. SO against a 10% 3-bettor I may be right to 4-bet JJ+, AK, AQs? At least OOP, and do some calls IP?

Most people are see are 5 and below, so a much tighter range where I guess I should fold anything but premium applying what you've said above.

What about AK OOP against that range 5% and below range though, that's been bothering me, should I still 4-bet with it, it has an equity of 48.9% against a 5% range.

Ask yourself why is the villian 3-betting?

Is it because he holds a strong hand?

Is it because he thinks I will fold?

At micro-stakes it is almost always the first reason, he holds a very strong hand, he is not exploiting you, he simply holds a strong hand.

You're right of course, there are some people who do it though at 20NL. And I have a funny story to share for play at micro

I was 3-betting light in one game and this guy 4-bet me a few times, I did have a note on him that he 4-bets light...so one time he did it with me holding something less than premium (forgot what) I just called him. (I know, should have been shoving but was too chicken to do it then)

He got scared seeing that, hesitated, checked the flop, I checked behind, tried to bluff at it on the turn, I re-bluffed and he folded.

So it does happen at micro, it is indeed too rare to worry about playing it...

 

[Stu_Ungar]

You know, I do hate it that you're right all the time (kidding)

I am in the red calling 3-bets, I don't know how to filter PT to show when I'm not last to act, but nevertheless I am in the red almost 4 BI's calling 3-bets (I call 26% of the time it seems, so fold to 3-bets 74%)

The peculiar thing is had I folded everytime instead of calling I would be down more, losing just the initial standard 3.5xbb raise. But looking at the hands I guess that's just variation of the small 300 hand size with me calling 3-bets and hitting the flop more than the normal amount. And maybe villains' poor post-flop play.

I'd like to talk about the numbers though, you mentioned 10%, correct me if I'm wrong but I think 10% is 3-betting light some of the time, it means a range of 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo according to poker stove.

In real life I guess that probably means JJ+, AK o/s AQs for value and anything else such as small SC's, any PP etc. for 3-bet light for them. SO against a 10% 3-bettor I may be right to 4-bet JJ+, AK, AQs? At least OOP, and do some calls IP?

Most people are see are 5 and below, so a much tighter range where I guess I should fold anything but premium applying what you've said above.

What about AK OOP against that range 5% and below range though, that's been bothering me, should I still 4-bet with it, it has an equity of 48.9% against a 5% range.

As people get better they start polarising their 3-bet range (dont just go off and do this because polarised ranged run into difficulties when people call 3bets OOP really light!)

As the range is polarised it isnt simply the best X% its some of the best X and some of the worst X (not things like 72o but things like A2s which could flop an ace, 2 pair a straight draw or a flush draw)

Because the range contains a many low value hands as well as some premium hands the size of the range widens, the villian is 3betting against people who are likely to fold. However the range contains just enough value hands that he can respond to 4 bets frequently enough to stop villan auto shoveing his 3-bets and turning a profit.

Under 10% (generally) ranges are 100% value 7% is the top 7% of hands 5% is the top 5% and 3.2 is the top 3.2%.

Knowing that look for hands that do well against these ranges and SHOVE!!

Most people are using a 3-bet range under 5% and its JJ+ AK AQs

Now you pop that into pokerstove and you are behind it with AK so you should fold.

You think.. AK is too good to fold, I'll call.

Put an A high flop into poker stove and take out all of the villians hands that wouldn't call an allin on an A high flop, then A King high flop then A non-Ace or King flop.

When you give villian credit enough that he wont stack off with KK on an A high flop suddenly you find that most of the times you hit you are WA/WB when you are WA villian folds and therefore you never really make enough back to cover the cost of calling all of these 3bets and hoping you hit. When you are behind you get your money in with AK on a K high board only to find that villian folds JJ and QQ and comes along with KK/AA/AK.

Villian's 3-bet range is just too tight for you to do anything about.

S the range widens yo can start playing back at 3-bets but when its this tight you cant even call with AK and profitably play back with it postflop because villian is not a complete idiot and will fold on boards wher he is obviously beat.

You cant setmine with low PP the 3-bet lowers the implied odds to just under what you need.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

You're right of course, there are some people who do it though at 20NL. And I have a funny story to share for play at micro

I was 3-betting light in one game and this guy 4-bet me a few times, I did have a note on him that he 4-bets light...so one time he did it with me holding something less than premium (forgot what) I just called him. (I know, should have been shoving but was too chicken to do it then)

He got scared seeing that, hesitated, checked the flop, I checked behind, tried to bluff at it on the turn, I re-bluffed and he folded.

So it does happen at micro, it is indeed too rare to worry about playing it...

It certainly does happen.

One thing toi be aware of is that usually you dont have anywhere near enough hands to accurately put someone on a 3-bet range.

Generally speaking people dont 3-bet light and those that do arent actually 3-betting light they just 3-bet a bit lighter than others!

If someone gets a run of good luck and gets 3/4/5 good hands in a short space of time, you may suddenly assume that he is 3-betting light, you understand ranges surrounding this, you have prepared for this moment, you will not be pushed around and you will play back.

The truth is he has just had a few good hands in a row. If everyone plays a tight range, then statistically is it more likley that the guy who 3 bets a few times in 30 mins is a normal player with a few good hands or a player trying to exploit your fold to 3bet stat?

The clue is in the assumption, if everyone plays tight then it becomes more likely that he has just got a few good hands in a row.

Just keep filtering your DB and looking at specific situations. When you have 100/200K samples you cant really argue with the way the poker world works, the key is to adapt to only do profitable things within this framework rather than looking for ways to change the framework.

If people dont 3bet all that light AND people wont let go of overpairs and TPTK postflop then you cant hope to play back at them with a dominated hand, they wont fold if they have an overpair (and they are correct because if yoiu had a hand that likley beat them you would have 4 bet it preflop!)


The fact that the SPR has lowered so much in a 3-bet pot means you cant draw.

Just give up! Its the more profitable option in this situation

 

[KyleJRM]

1) I get mad at myself for playing a pot OOP against a TAG.

2) I get mad at him for presumably calling behind me.

3) I oversize my c-bet.

4) I double-barrel, choosing to believe his call behind was a float.

5) I get to the river unimproved and don't know what to do.

6) I swear I'll be more careful about position in the future.

 

[ComplexPlaya]

Well, first of all I'd like to thank you for putting in all that time to write that much Stu, highly appreciated.

I understand and will try to apply that. I guess the same really goes for IP, as it loses its edge against monster hands (unless the villain is so weak they play fit or fold once they 3-bet)

I still have a question about the fold or shove strat you recommend...isn't it more profitable to 4-bet value instead of shoving? Or the people that will call a 4-bet will also call a shove, not just call it with KK+ and AK

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Well, first of all I'd like to thank you for putting in all that time to write that much Stu, highly appreciated.

I understand and will try to apply that. I guess the same really goes for IP, as it loses its edge against monster hands (unless the villain is so weak they play fit or fold once they 3-bet)

I still have a question about the fold or shove strat you recommend...isn't it more profitable to 4-bet value instead of shoving? Or the people that will call a 4-bet will also call a shove, not just call it with KK+ and AK

TBH it starts getting more complex and TBH you wont be in a 3bet/4bet/5bet game, but the jist is that a 4-bet has to work A LOT in order to show a profit, a 5 bet on the other hand can be done with a weaker hand than a 4 bet! because the 5 bet has fold equity, once you shove the villian cant come over theh top and make you fold AND you get to see a Showdown so the cost of the 5 bet is always less than the money put into the pit because some of that money is ofset by the equity your hand has against villians range.

So when shoving over a 4 bet there is already a lot of money in the pot, so the risk to reward ratio lowers and all hands have some showdown equity so the cost of the shove is lowered because on average if the villian calls you will suckout on him sometimes, add to that the enormous fold equity it has and you end up being able to 5 bet shove light.

4 bet shoving has to work even mpre than normal 4 betting because the risk to reward ratio is bad. You are risking 100bb to earn 15ish bb so as a bluff villian must fold often.

4-betting to around 2.5 times villians bet needs to work about 65% of the time, you can offset that with equity but you need to be getting a lot of folds and when he dosent fold you need to be ahead of his range a lot.

Hence you cant 4-bet light until villian 3-bets very light so probably 15%+ even 20%+

The 10% figure was essentially that when villian is 3-betting 10% and under it is a pure value range.

after that it starts to include some bluffs and very weak hands. But even so dont start thinking 11% I can 4-bet because the bulk of his range is still value.

The key to exploiting people with value baases 3-bet ranges is not getting into pots OOP with them when the 3-bet the key is getting into pots OOP when they dont 3-bet (having had the chance to do so) if they 3 bet all their best hands, then when they dont 3-bet they dont hold those hands!

 

[atlantafalcons0]

I read this whole thread and I have to say that Stu has his head on straight.

Thanks for the read Stu - I gained valuable information just from reading.

Your posts are easy to read and understand.

Very helpful!

 

[ongkie]

try check raising. not very sure of this situation. but check raising will often get paid off

 

[ComplexPlaya]

The key to exploiting people with value baases 3-bet ranges is not getting into pots OOP with them when the 3-bet the key is getting into pots OOP when they dont 3-bet (having had the chance to do so) if they 3 bet all their best hands, then when they dont 3-bet they dont hold those hands!

That I guess, is one of the simple and obvious truths I don't think about when playing, so good pointer.

It is a bit tricky to apply though, if a 5% range is 88+,ATs+,KQs,AKo I can't think they didn't 3-bet me so surely they don't have ATs or KQs or 88-JJ, people often flat call with those hands, I guess it'll be a bit confusing till I'll get a handle on it.

Anyway, against that range say, I am not sure if it's a good idea to 4-bet shove with say QQ even if it's 60% against it, because 88-JJ or AJs won't call a shove, most likely only KK, AA and AK will get an all in call from regular TAG players and I'm WB that range.

Perhaps I'll do just a value 4-bet and not a shove to get more hands out of that range to call, and no 4-betting light no matter how much I want to lol