Returning to cash games and having problems

[Aballinamion]

Hello guys I’ve restarted playing cash (only 2 hour session) and I’ve faced a couple of problems that I will ask the community’ aid:

Description of facts:

I got myself in a 6-MAX table, NLHE 2, full of loose passive players.

a) there was a player in UTG raising almost 100% of times: if I 3-bet it calls and plays the flop aggressively.

b) players in other positions also loose passive, limping and raising too much, not giving me room for exploitation. (Very hard to open from CO and BU, and almost impossible to steal SB x BB).

I got a player very bad, calling giant pots with dominated hands and I got dealt AQo OOP: I 3-bet, recreational calls and I hit top pair and checked OOP. Villain also checks and comes another spade, so I decided to bet 3/4 of the pot, villain calls.
On the river completed a flush of spades, I checked and villain shoved 75 blinds: I could not fold my TP2K here and it has shown Ts9s, and I ended losing a relevant pot.

Another hand with another loose passive I 3-bet KQo preflop and hit top two: I bet flop and turn and river villains bets 20 BB, I call and got counterfeit on the river for a better top two pair (it had ATo).

I think it’s good to have loose passive players at the table, but when all players are like that it becomes very hard to play. What are your suggestions? Should I had picked up another table with at least one or two regulars to balance? It was just bad luck or I was leveling against fishes because they’ve showed a lot of weaknesses?

 

[JappsPK]

I think you're okay. A bit of unlucky obviously, specially on the flush draw hand... perhaps you should have bet instead of checking, you gave him a free check.

And your KQo hand, betting 3 streets and the Villain calling can be dangerous, even more when he bets 20 bbs.

Overall, again, is unlucky... If you feel the players on the board are difficult to play against, just change your table. Thats the advantage on playing cash tables, you can leave whenever you want and you can choose where to sit.

 

[MK_]

"Should I had picked up another table with at least one or two regulars to balance?".... yes,
although those 2 hands sound somewhat standard the idea of an entirely loose table and
the obligatory guy raising every single hand makes it a waste of time... so yes another table to balance

 

[RENEY444]

Trappers sometimes get caught too.

 

[Station_Master]

You want to play against bad player so I dont think you should move table.

However, playing against fish can increase variance and I have had many sessions where I stay at a table for long time because of all the fish and yet they take my money! You have to accept the variance and mostly play good hands, waiting to flop a strong hand.

 

[rastapapolos]

I think that you should play a larger sample vs those loose players, something around 2-3k hands could tell if you're doing things correct or you should change your strategy.

 

[wavetune]

if you are uncomfortable playing with such players, then in my opinion the answer is obvious, should you change the table or not the second, if you get involved in a game where you understand that aggressive players and some enter each hand with a raise, you have to accept the rules of the game and also play aggressively, and for this you need to play bankroll management, so that you are not afraid to lose a couple of entries, if you are not playing on a bankroll, then such a game shackles you and, accordingly, you will lose

 

[Tadi]

You know poker strategy a lot better than I do, but I'm still going to comment. I would bet after the flop with AQO, and everything else I would play the same. Simply put, you were unlucky. The next game will be the other way around. What is bad is best to forget as soon as possible. Good luck!

 

[Aballinamion]

Thanks a lot @JappsPK , @MK_ , @RENEY444 , @Station_Master , @rastapapolos , @vardann and @Tadi for your precious comments and analysis!
I still would like to read the opinions of my dear old mates, @gustav197poker and @fundiver199
Cheers

 

[fundiver199]

I got a player very bad, calling giant pots with dominated hands and I got dealt AQo OOP: I 3-bet, recreational calls and I hit top pair and checked OOP.

Dont slowplay a vulnerable hand like top pair.

Villain also checks and comes another spade, so I decided to bet 3/4 of the pot, villain calls.

Ok fine.

On the river completed a flush of spades, I checked and villain shoved 75 blinds: I could not fold my TP2K here and it has shown Ts9s, and I ended losing a relevant pot.

Fold when he tells you, you are beat. Get rid of that urge, that you "have to see it", and "your hand is to strong". The latter is usually just an excuse for making bad calls. At least when you play against fish.

Another hand with another loose passive I 3-bet KQo preflop and hit top two: I bet flop and turn and river villains bets 20 BB, I call and got counterfeit on the river for a better top two pair (it had ATo).

So kind of a bad beat? That happens.

I think it’s good to have loose passive players at the table, but when all players are like that it becomes very hard to play.

But also very profitable.

What are your suggestions?

Be patient, have enough bankroll and embrace the variance.

Should I had picked up another table with at least one or two regulars to balance?

If you normally multitable, then yes.

It was just bad luck or I was leveling against fishes because they’ve showed a lot of weaknesses?

The AQo hand was played poorly. Focus on fixing such mistakes rather than the short term result.

 

[gustav197poker]

In 2NL you must play with your hand and with your strongest possible range. You should avoid staying at one table. The ideal is to constantly vary the table at which you play. You should always go hunting for the fish. Find the weakest player at the table and try to play everything, only with him.
If you are not used to playing more than one table, you can start by playing just one while looking at others, trying to find the weakest players.
If the table is too sticky move to another where there are fewer active villains. But don't go to a table with very low VPIP either because that will make it more difficult for you to find the fish.
The variance will always be there. But remember that there is negative variance and positive variance, so game volume, is also a factor to consider, when looking to compensate for variance.

 

[Joe]

Replying before reading any other answer for purity… 😊

With these kind of situations you just have to keep on keeping on… If you’re getting it in good and getting out drawn or counterfeited the only/main thing is the equity you had when you make the decision to put the chips in.

In a CC game the other day I had AQ or KQ on a Q high flop and played it aggressively on every street, it goes all in and opponent had Q9 and hit the 3outer river.

Can’t remember the precise board etc but when you have 80-90% with one card to come, it’s a good thing if you can get all the chips in - regardless of how the river falls…

 

[xOneCoolHandx]

Hello guys I’ve restarted playing cash (only 2 hour session) and I’ve faced a couple of problems that I will ask the community’ aid:

Description of facts:

I got myself in a 6-MAX table, NLHE 2, full of loose passive players.

a) there was a player in UTG raising almost 100% of times: if I 3-bet it calls and plays the flop aggressively.

b) players in other positions also loose passive, limping and raising too much, not giving me room for exploitation. (Very hard to open from CO and BU, and almost impossible to steal SB x BB).

I got a player very bad, calling giant pots with dominated hands and I got dealt AQo OOP: I 3-bet, recreational calls and I hit top pair and checked OOP. Villain also checks and comes another spade, so I decided to bet 3/4 of the pot, villain calls.
On the river completed a flush of spades, I checked and villain shoved 75 blinds: I could not fold my TP2K here and it has shown Ts9s, and I ended losing a relevant pot.

Another hand with another loose passive I 3-bet KQo preflop and hit top two: I bet flop and turn and river villains bets 20 BB, I call and got counterfeit on the river for a better top two pair (it had ATo).

I think it’s good to have loose passive players at the table, but when all players are like that it becomes very hard to play. What are your suggestions? Should I had picked up another table with at least one or two regulars to balance? It was just bad luck or I was leveling against fishes because they’ve showed a lot of weaknesses?

Your strategy against a LPP (and a table full of them) is to narrow your opening range and open to a larger amount than you normally do. If you are normally raising to 3 BBs and get more than 2 callers, then raise to 4 or 5 BBs and see if you can narrow the field. The other part to playing LPPs is the player that you said was UTG yet raising nearly 100% of pots. This does not strike me as a LPP but a Maniac and you battle him by again, tightening your range and then 3 betting large enough to get in heads up pots with him. If you know UTG is playing the flop aggressively, then I would be calling or raising with nearly 100% of my range depending on the flop texture and the strength of my hand. Let's say you have AKs. He raises to 3 BBs and you 3 bet to 11 or 12 and you see a flop of Q75 (suits don't really matter all that much unless you flop a flush draw) and he comes out donk leading. I made a whole thread about how donk leads are generally weak and you should play back against them with marginal strength hands and better. BUT, in this case, you have a maniac who is likely to bluff every street with whatever junk is in their range. This is the type player that I will call down even with AK when I have completely missed. The reason is that that guy is basically opening any two and then calling with the same range because he thinks that he can bully you around.

There are some other leaks in your game. Take your AQ hand. I do the same as you and sometimes check TPTK from OOP to protect my checking range but rarely against a LPP. The first part of LPP is loose. C-betting into pots against LPPs is always a good mover from IP or OOP because these players will nearly always think you are bluffing and will call too widely needing runner runner to make a hand. One issue that I have with your hand description is that you just said that you flopped TPTK. What was the board? Did it interact with villain's range? Who had the nut advantage? What about the turn and the river? You just said a spade came on each street, again, it is hard to evaluate if you don't know the dynamics of the board. The worst criticism in this hand is your river play. The check is fine with the slush completing, but again, not knowing the interaction with the board is limiting. However, once again, read the description of the player: Loose PASSIVE Player. Passive players are only going to get it in when they are strong. TPTK will dry up on a lot of boards against the LPP's range and you should be folding a lot in these spots against this type of player.

Same is true on the KQ hand. If you had 2 pair with KQ and he had two pair with AT then the board is AKQT leaving a one liner to a jack. This was depending on the turn, your flop and turn bet are really good but I would probably be in check-call and possibly even check-fold mode on the river because, while villain was pretty optimistic with their raise (two pair on a very dynamic board), you know because he/she was raising that they had to have a pretty strong hand that leave 2 pair in rough shape.

It is great to have all types of players in your game and it is very important to learn how to play against different types of players and on certain table types. My advice to you is to tighten your range (you didn't even say what position the original raiser was in nor what position you 3 bet from in the KQ hand...against LPPs, KQo is often a fold in EP because you will often be dominated and you can find yourself in multiway pots with a subpar hand) in these micro stakes games against LPPs. Then up your aggression post-flop. Make these passive players pay to call big preflop and postflop raises. When you do this, the money will flow your direction.

There are three keys to winning poker at any level. The first is to play superior hands in position (this is especially important in these low stakes games...as you move up, you can mix your range more). The second is to figure out what your opponents do wrong and exploit the heck out of them until they adjust (and they will adjust eventually). The final and most important one is: find a game that you can beat and play a TON of it.

Cheers

 

[FIERROS]

Where are you playing poker.

 

[Aballinamion]

Get rid of that urge, that you "have to see it", and "your hand is to strong".

Can you believe this wasn’t the issue? I decided to call down on the river because the player seemed like a tilted one, betting and calling large with dominated hands. I knew I could be losing for a flush a ton of times, but villain could also be overplaying weak hands.

You should always go hunting for the fish. Find the weakest player at the table and try to play everything, only with him.

This is very good advice, thanks!

With these kind of situations you just have to keep on keeping on… If you’re getting it in good and getting out drawn or counterfeited the only/main thing is the equity you had when you make the decision to put the chips in.

I usually go in spots where I’m winning. As I said before, the problem is playing versus villains that already shown extreme weaknesses in showdowns, it’s almost inevitable not to try to level up against these type of players and perform more loose calls on the river that I will never do versus a decent player.

check TPTK from OOP to protect my checking range but rarely against a LPP. The first part of LPP is loose.

You are right, as fundiver199 had said, I played the hand poorly: I should’ve gone for value on the flop and then bet turn again, maybe he would’ve folded his medium flush draw.

Where are you playing poker.

pokerstars

P.S: my most immense thanks for all the players who spent their time posting here. Thank you all very much.
I played another session yesterday and it was a complete fiasco. I started the session having $ 21 and ended up having $ 16, and I didn’t do nothing seriously wrong.
The last hand I played was a AQo that I opened IP and got a huge 3-bet of villain OOP (it 3-bets to 4.5x versus my 3x first raise).
I called and hit a Queen on the flop, and then villain barrels flop, turn and river and had shown AA...
I knew that he could’ve been holding KK, AA, AK, but by the way I saw it playing I could not fold, because villain could also be holding another hands and be playing the same way (such as TT, JJ, missed AK, KQ, etc).

I’m thinking about moving to Full-Ring tables.

 

[makisaa]

You returned to the cash games and till you get use to this kind, you will have turbulence and up and down. Good luck!

 

[steve01991]

think you had some bad luck, i do agree with the way you played it!

 

[fundiver199]

Can you believe this wasn’t the issue? I decided to call down on the river because the player seemed like a tilted one, betting and calling large with dominated hands. I knew I could be losing for a flush a ton of times, but villain could also be overplaying weak hands.

Ok maybe this was your thought process, but I still dont think, this sounds like great hand reading. Lets start with the "overplaying weak hands" part. That would mainly be top pair worse kicker like AJ or AT. But he checked back the flop. This could be for pot control, and is it itself pretty reasonable in a 3-bet pot. But then why jam the river, when the flushdraw has completed? This is as bad for AJ or AT, as it was for AQ.

And its not like, it was a small sizing either. He piled in 75BB, and assuming a starting stack of 100BB, the pot was only around 50BB. So he overbet 1,5 times the pot, which makes no sense, if he was trying to pot control on the flop. Its a very polarizing sizing, which is basically either a flush or nothing. To look for the potential nothing, we need to look for busted draws, but since you did not share the entire board, I can not do that.

So lets move on to the part about him "seeming like a tilted player, betting and calling large with dominated hands". Ok that might be. I was not there. But there is a danger against very loose players of missing the fact, they might be splashing around quite a bit. But when the pot get big enough, sometimes they suddenly know how to play poker.

So questions to ask yourself here is, what hands had you seen him show down, and in what situations? Were there any hands, where he was all-in and got to showdown before this one? And did he show down a bluff? If not then maybe you were just looking for an excuse to not fold. And this combined with slowplaying on the flop is a problem. It can be ok sometimes to slowplay, but then we cant also get married to our hand, if the board run out in a way, where its quite likely, we have gotten drawn out on.

 

[Aballinamion]

since you did not share the entire board, I can not do that.

I saw villain calling a big pot having 66 on the river. On the other situation villain goes for a big pot having second pair plus weak kicker. There were other situations, I can’t remember all.

what hands had you seen him show down, and in what situations?And did he show down a bluff? If not then maybe you were just looking for an excuse to not fold. And this combined with slowplaying on the flop is a problem.

I understand what you are trying to put and you are completely right: I’m out of the tables for about three years, so I have lost something over my skills. In theory is very plain and simple, but when it’s me down there, making decisions, it’s hard to fold sometimes, and as you said, I was just looking for an excuse for not to fold.
In my behalf I wanna say that the forum analysis has changed my gameplay a bit: many hands that you or other experienced player comment and analyze, you are telling that is fine to go in complicated boards against weak opponents. I’m not blaming you by any means for my own mistakes, don’t get me wrong about this issue, please.
And I’m still addicted to play GTO. And we know that at the micros GTO might sound like slow playing, but in fact, I’m just out of shape, and performing quite a bunch of non-forced errors.
Thank you very much for you candor and analysis!

 

[fundiver199]

I saw villain calling a big pot having 66 on the river.

Ok so he call down light sometimes. But thats not the same as betting light. If a calling station (passive player) suddenly gets very aggressive, thats generally a red flag.

On the other situation villain goes for a big pot having second pair plus weak kicker.

Ok so he does sometimes go for light value? Or maybe he turned his hand into a bluff? But just how big was this "big" pot? What was his sizing? Was it also an overbet, or was it something more normal? What was the action leading up to his river bet? What was the board runout? Not asking you to remember all this, but these are important things to keep in mind, if we want to draw conclusions about his tendencies from such a hand. Just to take the point with bet sizing, people usually dont have the same kind of range, if they bet half pot, as when they overbet. If he had bet half pot on the river, then I would be very hesitant to fold, because its supposedly a much less polarized range.

but when it’s me down there, making decisions, it’s hard to fold sometimes, and as you said, I was just looking for an excuse for not to fold.

Apparently you were struggling a bit on this very loose table. And it can be tough to play against especially maniac type loose players. Someone with stats like VPIP 54 / PFR 38. And then maybe they also use very large sizing postflop with a lot of pot bets or even overbets. Against such players we either end up folding a lot, or we just hang on for dear life and hope, our marginal made hand is good, when we get to showdown in a massive pot.

If you get frustrated against such a player and feel, that maybe he has owned you a bit, getting there in some huge pots, coolering you and so on and so forth, it is ok to table change. In theory you *should* be able to beat such a player, but if you are not in the mood for massive variance, and/or he is on a heater, then just pass and find another table to play on. Its also a part of the game to avoid situations, where we might end up playing on tilt. This certainly happened to me a few times, when I was a cash game grinder.

 

[Aballinamion]

but since you did not share the entire board, I can not do that.

I would like to share the hands I played, but I’m using cellphone to play, for I have no computer right now, but I do have a regular job and I’m saving money to buy one.
Using cellphone is hard to get the hand history: I need to ask PokerStars and they send all the hands in just one file and I gotta be looking hand by hand of hundreds of hands.

then maybe they also use very large sizing postflop with a lot of pot bets or even overbets.

Yes man I always find hard to play loose aggressive players, even playing Cardschat’s freerolls. Many times I got myself in a 3-way pot folding the best hand because loose maniacs had overbet or went all-in and I folded, but got able to see their ridiculous showdown.

Once again, thank you very much for your attention and kindness, it’s very nice of you to spend all this time providing me such great advices and insights.

I think that overall I’m nervous because I have just a couple of buy-ins and I’m not applying what I know, as you know pretty well: when I’m analyzing someone else’s hands everything is clear and easy, for I have a long time to study and think about the best course of action.
At the tables I have just 10 seconds and I’m out of the tables for a long time. I will continue playing freerolls until I reach a more decent bankroll and then I will return again more confident.

 

[LOKIE77]

I don't give free cards and I generally put them on a draw when they are just calling unless you have see then check raise or semi bluff their draws.. When they bet big on the River they have the hand ie the flush so unless you have them dominated with a higher flush you need to fold. Those loose passive types don't bluff and only bet big on the turn and river when they have the nuts or close to it. Wait until you get a better hand an a more neutral board or one with all the missed draws and value bet them aggressively. Thats when you want to go all the way.

 

[maestro121920]

Hello guys I’ve restarted playing cash (only 2 hour session) and I’ve faced a couple of problems that I will ask the community’ aid:

Description of facts:

I got myself in a 6-MAX table, NLHE 2, full of loose passive players.

a) there was a player in UTG raising almost 100% of times: if I 3-bet it calls and plays the flop aggressively.

b) players in other positions also loose passive, limping and raising too much, not giving me room for exploitation. (Very hard to open from CO and BU, and almost impossible to steal SB x BB).

I got a player very bad, calling giant pots with dominated hands and I got dealt AQo OOP: I 3-bet, recreational calls and I hit top pair and checked OOP. Villain also checks and comes another spade, so I decided to bet 3/4 of the pot, villain calls.
On the river completed a flush of spades, I checked and villain shoved 75 blinds: I could not fold my TP2K here and it has shown Ts9s, and I ended losing a relevant pot.

Another hand with another loose passive I 3-bet KQo preflop and hit top two: I bet flop and turn and river villains bets 20 BB, I call and got counterfeit on the river for a better top two pair (it had ATo).

I think it’s good to have loose passive players at the table, but when all players are like that it becomes very hard to play. What are your suggestions? Should I had picked up another table with at least one or two regulars to balance? It was just bad luck or I was leveling against fishes because they’ve showed a lot of weaknesses?

TPTK should have been a disciplined fold bec of overbet shove, you only have 1 pr and that is weak for 75bb in a 100bb starting stack

2nd hand just variance just have to call it off because of how much you have invested already

nah, you have a great table you just have to max your value and minimize loses