PokerZion article: Donk Leads

[John A]

Donk Leads
So you open raise from the cut-off with KcTc in a 6-max or full ring cash game, and a player that you perceive as not very good calls you in the small blind. The flop comes: 3c 8s Qd. The weak player bets 2/3rds of the pot into you. Almost always this means I have a 3, an 8, a small pocket pair, or air. What do I see a lot of students do though? Yep, fold.

A small raise is going to take down this pot almost always. The board is super dry, there's no reason to bet into someone if they had a Queen. Now, if your opponent is really really bad, it's entirely possible that they make a pair and just bet. You of course want to pay attention for this kind of player. There's also the passive bad trappy player that may have an over pair and is looking to get you to call with a Q or worse. You also don't want to make this play at the higher small stakes games against competent of good regulars, because they will sometimes lead with top pair or better to induce action. Those are the exceptions in these cases, and not the rule however.

Back to our example, we have a backdoor straight and a high backdoor flush as well, and an over card that might be good. So in situations that we are called, we have a lot of things to our advantage. We'll have position, and we'll have a lot of backdoor outs that can connect and scoop a nice pot when our opponents does have a hand. If we pick up a card on the turn that improves our hand, such as a club or a jack, king or ace, we can bet again and apply extra pressure. If not, we can choose to check and hope to hit a ten or King that might be good. The bottom line is that we're applying pressure to our opponent in position, and taking back the initiative in the hand.

Same situation as above, but this time the flop comes: 8h 9c Qh. Your opponent donk leads into you for 2/3rds of the pot. Even though you have a gut shot, you should fold. Why? A king likely isn't a good card for you so you don't have any solid over card outs, and a ten isn't a good card for you either. You're left with a gutshot that doesn't carry high implied odds, and a back door flush draw. On top of that, it's highly plausible your opponent is leads with a draw, or some type of combo draw such as 9hTh. It's not a good texture to raise on because our fold equity is dramatically reduced.. Any board texture that is very draw heavy, and doesn't provide you with good solid out if you're called, is not a situation you want to look to pressure your opponents lead bet.

Stay focused on clear dry boards with lots of backdoor outs, and some over card outs. Pay attention to how often your opponent is leading into pre-flop raisers (either by using your hud or your good old fashioned eye balls). Look for ideal opponents who are weak players, but on the more aggressive side of the scale. Use the position you have on your opponent and apply pressure by making them make a decision, take back the initiative and scoop the pot.

 

[billatx]

Donk Leads
So you open raise from the cut-off with KcTc in a 6-max or full ring cash game, and a player that you perceive as not very good calls you in the small blind. The flop comes: 3c 8s Qd. The weak player bets 2/3rds of the pot into you. Almost always this means I have a 3, an 8, a small pocket pair, or air. What do I see a lot of students do though? Yep, fold.

A small raise is going to take down this pot almost always. The board is super dry, there's no reason to bet into someone if they had a Queen. Now, if your opponent is really really bad, it's entirely possible that they make a pair and just bet. You of course want to pay attention for this kind of player. There's also the passive bad trappy player that may have an over pair and is looking to get you to call with a Q or worse. You also don't want to make this play at the higher small stakes games against competent of good regulars, because they will sometimes lead with top pair or better to induce action. Those are the exceptions in these cases, and not the rule however.

Back to our example, we have a backdoor straight and a high backdoor flush as well, and an over card that might be good. So in situations that we are called, we have a lot of things to our advantage. We'll have position, and we'll have a lot of backdoor outs that can connect and scoop a nice pot when our opponents does have a hand. If we pick up a card on the turn that improves our hand, such as a club or a jack, king or ace, we can bet again and apply extra pressure. If not, we can choose to check and hope to hit a ten or King that might be good. The bottom line is that we're applying pressure to our opponent in position, and taking back the initiative in the hand.

Same situation as above, but this time the flop comes: 8h 9c Qh. Your opponent donk leads into you for 2/3rds of the pot. Even though you have a gut shot, you should fold. Why? A king likely isn't a good card for you so you don't have any solid over card outs, and a ten isn't a good card for you either. You're left with a gutshot that doesn't carry high implied odds, and a back door flush draw. On top of that, it's highly plausible your opponent is leads with a draw, or some type of combo draw such as 9hTh. It's not a good texture to raise on because our fold equity is dramatically reduced.. Any board texture that is very draw heavy, and doesn't provide you with good solid out if you're called, is not a situation you want to look to pressure your opponents lead bet.

Stay focused on clear dry boards with lots of backdoor outs, and some over card outs. Pay attention to how often your opponent is leading into pre-flop raisers (either by using your hud or your good old fashioned eye balls). Look for ideal opponents who are weak players, but on the more aggressive side of the scale. Use the position you have on your opponent and apply pressure by making them make a decision, take back the initiative and scoop the pot.

On the 3c 8s Qd board,i would donk bet with a Qx hand.Betting the flop,makes thinks much easier later on the hand and you know where you stand. Why would it be bad?Just to win the opponents likely flop bluff bet?Not
big enough to worry about and missing that bet on flop,makes thinks dangerous.

Any other reason not to donk bet?

 

[John A]

On the 3c 8s Qd board,i would donk bet with a Qx hand.Betting the flop,makes thinks much easier later on the hand and you know where you stand. Why would it be bad?Just to win the opponents likely flop bluff bet?Not
big enough to worry about and missing that bet on flop,makes thinks dangerous.

Any other reason not to donk bet?

To donk for value in that example would be pretty bad. You'd be missing value.

I'll give you a better example. You hold 79o and the flop is 3c9h6h. That's a good donk lead because there are a lot of turn cards you don't want to see. With the Qx example you said, we're really only worried about an A or K. The more vulnerable your hand is out of position, the better it is to take initiative (and know how to balance this against good players, but at micro and small stakes this isn't really a concern). The less vulnerable we are, the more we can concede the lead.

 

[WVHillbilly]

To donk for value in that example would be pretty bad. You'd be missing value.

I'll give you a better example. You hold 79o and the flop is 3c9h6h. That's a good donk lead because there are a lot of turn cards you don't want to see. With the Qx example you said, we're really only worried about an A or K. The more vulnerable your hand is out of position, the better it is to take initiative (and know how to balance this against good players, but at micro and small stakes this isn't really a concern). The less vulnerable we are, the more we can concede the lead.

This will be especially true because the Qx hands we're going to be flatting OOP generally are going to have either an A or K with them further reducing the amount of "scary" cards that might come. Leading TP on the Q83 flop described without some read that villain goes crazy facing a donk bet is going to be throwing away a lot of value.

 

[billatx]

Ok.On the 3c 8s Qd board with say KQ,from the blinds,should i check-raise flop and then check turn if called?What if my opponent has AQ?Will i be able to get out ?

 

[billatx]

It is really difficult for me to understand why you shouldn't donk bet OOP with top pair on a dry board,while OOP with initiative it is right.

What's the difference?

I beleive many people should have the same question.It is not an easy consept.

 

[billatx]

I've got an idea,but i'm not sure,because untill today i never check raise flop from blinds and i always donk bet for value(mostly when i 'm going to play from blinds i have 3 betpreflop,so i allredy have initiative).

But say i call from blinds.On the 3c 8s Qd with KQ would you check -call flop,while with AQ checkraise?

 

[John A]

It is really difficult for me to understand why you shouldn't donk bet OOP with top pair on a dry board,while OOP with initiative it is right.

What's the difference?

I beleive many people should have the same question.It is not an easy consept.

Because when people have initiave they bet the flop. The main point is that if you don't have initiative with Qx on a Q high board, you're missing value when bet and your opponent folds versus checking and letting them follow through with their c-bet.

If you have a plan for your hand if you're raised, then it's fine to lead sometimes. But you should know why you're leading.

 

[billatx]

i understand i may be missing some value,although on a dry flop many opponents will float but...

I still don't understand how you can miss donkbetting for value without putting yourself in difficult and dangerous situations.

 

[John A]

i understand i may be missing some value,although on a dry flop many opponents will float but...

I still don't understand how you can miss donkbetting for value without putting yourself in difficult and dangerous situations.

Evaluate for yourself the game you primarily play. Do you think more of your opponents will float if you lead? Then lead.

If you think however they will c-bet if you check AND fold if you lead more often, then check and call.

Simple.

Also, I don't understand your last point at all.

 

[billatx]

Ok ,say i have KQ on 3c 8s Qd flop.

What do i do?a)check-call?b)check-raise

What if i had QJ or TT?

These are difficult to play.If you don't bet flop,you don't know where you stand.

 

[John A]

Ok ,say i have KQ on 3c 8s Qd flop.

What do i do?a)check-call?b)check-raise

What if i had QJ or TT?

These are difficult to play.If you don't bet flop,you don't know where you stand.

Betting for "information" is losing poker.

Did you read the article? What cards are you worried about on the turn with KQ? An ace?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Yeah the article is how to combat the donk lead not when to donk yourself.

You advocate raising the donk lead. When, if ever, do you think it better to flat the donk and bet the turn when checked to (or raise the turn when it gives us added equity and our opponent leads again)?

 

[billatx]

Basically,i'm betting for value,but when i'm raised or called twice,i know that something is wrong.

Anyway ,

a)KQ on a 3c 8s Qd flop.I check-call.Then on the turn do i take initiative or do i continue check calling to showdown?

b)Do i only check-raise flop when i have a set or floped flush or straight?

 

[Poker_play]

Billa, I see what you're doing..but no, donk betting is definitely wrong as illustrated in this and the other post you made. Try to get out of that habit if you can (as you see, most of the poker players on here agree about it).
It's all villain/situation dependent, but...
it's OK to check-raise KQ on that Q83 flop if you want to protect the hand or get information. C-R is much better then donk betting in that situation.
And..lol..when you flop a set or a flush, you generally don't want to fire back. The guy has initiative--remember that--and you hit hard--so you really aren't worried about the turn or river. In most situation you want to call their cbet, and let them fire again on the turn..or give them a chance to hit something (like an ace or a king) so you can get more value.

 

[John A]

Yeah the article is how to combat the donk lead not when to donk yourself.

You advocate raising the donk lead. When, if ever, do you think it better to flat the donk and bet the turn when checked to (or raise the turn when it gives us added equity and our opponent leads again)?

When you have nut back door outs and preferably an over card or two and the board isn't super coordinated, ie: 9c Tc 7h kind of thing. Even at higher stakes, opponents won't expect you to flat a combo draw here because the games are more aggressive. So you won't have the benefit of bluffing outs.

So you have AhJs on a: Kh 9d 4h board and you are donked into. But in general at smaller stakes, it's just better to raise in this spot because you'll face a 1/2 pot bet with your opponents middle pair or mid pair again because they don't know what to do... so when you don't know what to do... bet, right?

 

[billatx]

Billa, I see what you're doing..but no, donk betting is definitely wrong as illustrated in this and the other post you made. Try to get out of that habit if you can (as you see, most of the poker players on here agree about it).
It's all villain/situation dependent, but...
it's OK to check-raise KQ on that Q83 flop if you want to protect the hand or get information. C-R is much better then donk betting in that situation.
And..lol..when you flop a set or a flush, you generally don't want to fire back. The guy has initiative--remember that--and you hit hard--so you really aren't worried about the turn or river. In most situation you want to call their cbet, and let them fire again on the turn..or give them a chance to hit something (like an ace or a king) so you can get more value.

Thanks!That makes sense.

So i only check-raise flop with a mediocre hand to see where i stand.The same i suppose if the board gets wet.


But which particular hands do i select to call from blinds?Untill today i would 3bet or fold and only call with 77-JJ(i would 3bet or fold suited connectors also).


If something else crosses your mind(anything) about playing from blinds,i'd be very happy to learn.


http://bestpokercoaching.com/shop/product/advanced-6max-how-to-play-from-the-blinds/

 

[WVHillbilly]

Please take the discussion of when/if to donk to another thread. This thread is about what to do when facing a donk lead.

 

[billatx]

Please take the discussion of when/if to donk to another thread. This thread is about what to do when facing a donk lead.

Ok,sorry,i thought it was related.

 

[baudib1]

Billatx, check-raise for value or check-raise as a bluff, don't check-raise "to see where you stand."

 

[John A]

Billatx, check-raise for value or check-raise as a bluff, don't check-raise "to see where you stand."

Ya, if you have this in your poker vocabulary, then you need to get it out asap.

 

[Akhanar]

You are a god, John. I started incorporating this into my game and it works like a charm! Great article.

 

[John A]

You are a god, John. I started incorporating this into my game and it works like a charm! Great article.

Ha... I'll take no less than golden God. lol Yeah, it works extremely well. Just make sure that as you move up some regulars will lead on dry boards trying to induce raises. As long as you can decipher those from the donks that do this, you'll make some extra bb's every session.