PokerStars “All In Cash Out” Feature

[Ragequit]

Hey guys, it's been a while. I really would like your opinions on something. Ok, so pokerstars have just rolled out a new "All In Cash Out" feature for cash games. They describe this service as: ... "Allowing cash game players in an all-in situation with no more action pending to forgo playing out the remainder of the hand in exchange for a cash payout equal to their equity in the pot minus an administrative fee equal to 1% of their equity" ... There's a full description here on Pokerfuse.com >> https://pokerfuse.com/news/poker-ro...stars-unique-all-cash-out-feature-coming-all/ ... It's my understanding that this allows players to dump the hand without risking large pots in exchange for a fee. I need to ask: ... Is this a good thing for online poker? Should we enable this feature and if yes/no, why? What are the good/bad points here? What do you think???

Ragequit

 

[Risto234]

Played cash game earlier today ... went all-in vs someone and before winning that hand i believe othere considered cashout or whatever ...

 

[fundiver199]

The benefit of taking out insurance is, that it reduce your variance. This allow you to use more aggressive bankroll management, or it reduce your risk of having to move down due to a run of bad luck. It also makes it easier to keep yourself off tilt, if losing big pots tend to tilt you.

I would consider taking the insurance, if the money at stake matter to my bankroll and there is a significant risk, I will lose the pot. It makes no sense to insure my flopped quads from being outdrawn by my opponents overpair, since this will only happen 1 in 990 times. And it also makes no sense to insure 5$, if my total bankroll is 645$.

But if I was playing 25NL with that 645$ bankroll, and had a 35$ share of a 50$ pot with 30% risk of losing it, this would be the time to seriously consider taking insurance and lock up that 10$ win rather than risk up ending with a 25$ loss due to a bad runout.

The downside it, that your opponents can also use insurance to keep away from tilt, so maybe they will play less bad against you. However if it attract more casual players to cash games, that is obviously a good thing, so as to this being good or bad for online poker, I can see an argument for both.

 

[kozong]

PokerStars Hand #203264873477: 6+ Hold'em No Limit (Button Blind $0.02 - Ante $0.02 USD) - 2019/08/14 0:03:23 CUST [2019/08/13 13:03:23 ET]
Table 'Cheleb' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: riennevaplus ($2 in chips)
Seat 2: procenko777 ($1.98 in chips)
Seat 3: LeoRheydt ($1.95 in chips)
Seat 4: kozong ($18.82 in chips)
Seat 5: Feuervoge909 ($2.29 in chips)
Seat 6: Mukim13 ($2 in chips)
riennevaplus: posts the ante $0.02
procenko777: posts the ante $0.02
LeoRheydt: posts the ante $0.02
kozong: posts the ante $0.02
Feuervoge909: posts the ante $0.02
Mukim13: posts the ante $0.02
Feuervoge909: posts button blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to kozong [9c Kd]
Mukim13: calls $0.02
riennevaplus: calls $0.02
procenko777: raises $0.14 to $0.16
LeoRheydt: folds
kozong: folds
Feuervoge909: calls $0.14
Mukim13: calls $0.14
riennevaplus: calls $0.14
*** FLOP *** [Qc 6s 9h]
Mukim13: checks
riennevaplus: checks
procenko777: bets $0.49
Feuervoge909: raises $1.62 to $2.11 and is all-in
Mukim13: calls $1.82 and is all-in
riennevaplus: folds
procenko777: calls $1.31 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($0.29) returned to Feuervoge909
*** TURN *** [Qc 6s 9h] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [Qc 6s 9h Td] Q♦
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Mukim13: shows [8d 7d] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Feuervoge909: shows [Qs 8c] (three of a kind, Queens)
procenko777: shows [Ks Qh] (three of a kind, Queens)
Mukim13 cashed out the hand for $2.62 | Cash Out Fee $0.03
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.20 Main pot $5.94. Side pot $0.04. | Rake $0.22
Board [Qc 6s 9h Td Qd]
Seat 1: riennevaplus folded on the Flop
Seat 2: procenko777 showed [Ks Qh] and lost with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 3: LeoRheydt folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: kozong folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Feuervoge909 (button blind) showed [Qs 8c] and lost with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 6: Mukim13 showed [8d 7d] and won ($5.98) with a straight, Six to Ten (pot not awarded as player cashed out)

its kinda good for players when their sets, straights or flushes being outdrawn by better hands i guess

but when we win a hand & opted in for it, we get considerably less than pot or worse like in Mukim13 case above is just somewhere less than 1/2 pot (2.62$ out of 5.98$ pot)

*im also wondering about those part of the cash-out pot that the winning players didnt get to keep

 

[Babis VGS]

Guys this feature works even if one player agrees? Because I have disabled it by default and two times the villain cashed out, I didn't he won the pot from insurance and I lost everything. Wtf? Is it a bug?

 

[iwont20]

Guys this feature works even if one player agrees? Because I have disabled it by default and two times the villain cashed out, I didn't he won the pot from insurance and I lost everything. Wtf? Is it a bug?

Everyone decides it for themselves, you can't disable this option for other players.
So you disabled it - and once another player cashed out, you play not against him now, but against Pokerstars. So, in your hand - you lost it all, Pokerstars won a pot against you, another player cashed out his percentage by equity.

 

[Babis VGS]

Everyone decides it for themselves, you can't disable this option for other players.
So you disabled it - and once another player cashed out, you play not against him now, but against Pokerstars. So, in your hand - you lost it all, Pokerstars won a pot against you, another player cashed out his percentage by equity.

So if I lose the pot and the other player has cashed out Pokerstars can take for example 30% of the Pot?

 

[kostas1234]

this is no good , if you win you don't take anything cause the other player cashed out what is this haha

 

[Babis VGS]

this is no good , if you win you don't take anything cause the other player cashed out what is this haha

Ι agree. Wtf how is that possible?

 

[Numerius]

I basically agree with fundriver. Cashing out your equity in the pot helps to reduce variance. It will cost you a fee of 1% of your share in the pot, however. If you are good at mantaining your A-game even if get rivered again and again or never seem to hit your semi-bluff-draws, it's just not worth it.


If you are like me and start to feel your blood pumping once you see your AA losing to 72o preflop all-in AGAIN, it may be +EV to use the feature so you don't tilt away a lot more than 1% of your equity in a few all-in pots.


Personally, I decided to use it when I feel I'm not on my A-game anymore. That turned out to be kind of difficult, though, because when you are behind and desperate to catch up you will want to win the WHOLE pot, not just your equity of say 62%. So maybe it would be better to decide once and for all to auto-use it all the time.


One more thing: according to Stars the cash-out is FREE if 1% of your equity is less than 1c. So if you're playing micros and are way behind you can reduce variance at no cost.

 

[fundiver199]

this is no good , if you win you don't take anything cause the other player cashed out what is this haha

If one player take insurance, and the other dont, the non insured player is playing against the house just like in a casino game. You have KK, your opponent have AA, you get it in preflop, your opponent takes insurance, but you dont. You spike a K on the flop and dubble up, but its PokerStars paying you not the other player. And therefore after the hand he has around 160BB in his stack, and you have 200BB.

 

[fundiver199]

If you are like me and start to feel your blood pumping once you see your AA losing to 72o preflop all-in AGAIN, it may be +EV to use the feature so you don't tilt away a lot more than 1% of your equity in a few all-in pots.

I certainly think, it makes sense to mainly insure, when we are against someone, who we think made a bad play. If we get AA all in preflop against KK, we typically dont berate the other guy for, how he played the hand. So there is less tilt issues, when KK occationally get there and win the hand.

Yesterday on 888 poker I had two hands, where I kind of wish, insurance had been an option. In the first I got KK all in preflop against TT. The opponent was somewhat of a maniac, so I was like “hah finally got you”, but of course he got there. In the second hand I turned a straight with a 1-liner on the board, I bet, and now my opponent, who was a bit of a fish, mini-raised. I put him all in, he called, he flipped over a set, and of course the board paired on the river.

I will not say, I tilted hard because of these two hands, but it would certainly have been more fun, if I had my equity share locked up, and these two goofballs were playing against the house. In that situation I would even hope for them to get lucky, because then we would have some nice deep stacked play going in the next hand.

This is a possible benefit of insurance also, because if we lose, we can only reload to 100BB, and if we win, the opponent can only reload to 100BB, and bad players will often stop, when they get stacked. However with insurance, we can take home our equity share and become deep stacked, and if the bad player get lucky, he will also be deep stacked, which should be a great situation for us.

 

[dlam]

I’m not sure what to think what this feature. I haven’t used it Seems to strange. Would be nice to have this feature in tournament play though.

I think the best way to use this option would be against aggressive player who like to bluff with air in their range and go all in with the plan to cash out and take the equity out cause you know you have some equity

 

[dlam]

I think this will ruin poker. It takes away some good bluffers who were willing to bluff with air. And more players willing to call all ins even if you are not sure they have the best hand because they can cash out with equity
if they have drawing who would must likely be priced out to make the call and fold but with insurance it changes the strategy

 

[Erickaie]

I really do think that this idea is not so fun, but, we all have the option not to plaY it if we dont find it fun, so pokerstars is just probably trying new methods of playing for more receeational players, i personally would not play it though.

 

[fundiver199]

I think this will ruin poker. It takes away some good bluffers who were willing to bluff with air. And more players willing to call all ins even if you are not sure they have the best hand because they can cash out with equity
if they have drawing who would must likely be priced out to make the call and fold but with insurance it changes the strategy

I believe, you are way overthinking this. It just give players an opportunity to always win 7$ from a 10$ pot, where they are a 70% favourite, when all the money has gone in before the river, rather than sometimes win 10$ and other time 0$. There is no logical reason at all, why this should make people play any different. Also these situations are simply not all that common. I played 4 tables for 1 hour to try out the new feature, but did not even get the chance. And neither did anyone else at the 4 tables, so I have yet to see it in function.

 

[fundiver199]

Played another short session this morning and have seen it in function now. A recreational players with 40BB got AK all in preflop against AJ, and took the insurance option. More importantly in another pot two players got QQ all in against AK, and did not take the insurance option. But they ran it twice, so that feature has NOT been removed, even though their have been rumours about it.

 

[dlam]

I believe, you are way overthinking this. It just give players an opportunity to always win 7$ from a 10$ pot, where they are a 70% favourite, when all the money has gone in before the river, rather than sometimes win 10$ and other time 0$. There is no logical reason at all, why this should make people play any different. Also these situations are simply not all that common. I played 4 tables for 1 hour to try out the new feature, but did not even get the chance. And neither did anyone else at the 4 tables, so I have yet to see it in function.

Let’s say you hold A♥️Q♥️ On a K♥️K♦️J♥️ Flop and pot is small. You are HU and deep stack He puts you all in and you think you are behind I know I have insurance I will more likely call to get cash back and hope I was wrong and he was bluffing Only way to know is to call If I didn’t have insurance I more likely than not call as I don’t know how nitty the player is and rather not take the chance

 

[Santiman]

imo it't not a horrible feature as its saved my a$$ a few times from busting out.. but it does take a bit of fun out of the game at the same time

 

[fundiver199]

Let’s say you hold A♥️Q♥️ On a K♥️K♦️J♥️ Flop and pot is small. You are HU and deep stack He puts you all in and you think you are behind I know I have insurance I will more likely call to get cash back and hope I was wrong and he was bluffing Only way to know is to call If I didn’t have insurance I more likely than not call as I don’t know how nitty the player is and rather not take the chance

Even with insurance you are still losing money, when you get it in behind. You are just losing for instance 3$ every time rather than 10$ most of the time and winning 10$, when you get lucky. For a rational player it should make no difference to his decision making at all.

 

[Cash2019]

Hi! Think if this option reduces the effect of dispersion, then this is good news. It is very unpleasant when a hand with better value loses to a weaker hand. If a person is inclined to tilt, this function is able to save him from incorrect actions.

 

[Ragequit]

Thanks

Cheers for all the replies. I still can't fully grasp the Maths of how Pokerstars are working all of this out, I'm sure it will click soon! .... until then I'm leaving it disabled.

R

 

[TheGenera1]

This feature will reduce fold equity imo.

 

[Muckutoo]

Hey everyone, I had to hit search to find a thread on the subject, because it kind of ruined my morning. I had forgot about this new feature, and it popped up for the first time in my play. I was playing a zoom cash table, had $2 at the table. Received AA, villain had raised to me, I re-raised, he put me all in, of course I called . He had AK, then the cash out option appeared. I was 94% to win, and I was given an option to cash out for $1.66. In my mind, that meant they were offering me $1.66 of my original $2, so I declined. Of course the villain won, this is PokerStars. In hindsight, the $1.66 they offered me, would that have been in the addition to my original $2? So I would’ve finished the hand with $3.66 at the table?

 

[dlam]

What I do is cash out if I’m ahead with 5 community to go as there is a lot that can happen. If it’s one card and just 5th street I let it ride if I’m ahead as likely win
I do the opposite if I’m the underdog

If I’m behind preflop I let play out with 5 community card
If I’m behind after the flop usually cash out and get what ever equity I have unless it’s less 20%