Current Cash Game situation

[canbora]

So, just focusing, lets say the past year. I've been a MTT player. Overall winning player. Main focus was PKO MTT's. I have more than a handful of first place wins as well as numbers final table finishes. And many ITM finishes. We can always do better and improve, but I felt i was, at least for the time being, good enough...and I wanted to improve my cash game. Because I'll admit, I at least "think" I was bad at it. I had no real numbers to back it up, but just as a guess, I may not have been as bad as I thought, but I'll bet ya I was a break even player (i only tracked my tournies, not cash). If you made me guess. I'd say I was dead in the middle. I dont consider this acceptable or good.

So I've been doing a crap ton of cash training lately. Both GTOs and reading, watching pros, listening to people. The whole nine yards. i have to say I've learned A LOT and patched A LOT of holes and am continuing to do so. Even as much as patching several holes this week. Its just crazy, its the "same" game ... but its not lol. Crazy how the little nuances change from one style to the next.

What I find frustrating is the crazy level of nittyness. I've regular played from 2NL, clear up to 100NL regularly. There are small differences as you go up but its at least 70%-ish the same. You dont have that crazy betting that pros do at 2/5 and above. Most of your pots are straight up theft. Its the only way you can get anywhere. Then if you see a maniac, yeah sure you can get a stack, and I have. But you're mostly just racking up micro pots. I've laid down A LOT of hands recently where I had something but they seemed too eager to go for it. And i've had to tolerate pulling in small pots with my monster hands.

See thats the thing, this is how cash is different. You do WAY more. So I'm getting use to that too. If you're in a tourney and you hit a monster, theres a decent chance you're taking someone's stack, because you have to play like that. Cash, it doesnt work that way always. Matter of fact it seems rare, at least at lower stakes.

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TLDR version:

Trying to patch a current hole in my game where theres a non improved board to an over pair, like aces. Its all low cards, but...still there's that chance they have a gapped connector for the straight and they hit it. Or nail the random set.

 

[canbora]

further more. I think i need to take a small break. Do some thinking, some evaluation, some more training... adjust. I actually lost two stacks today. One I feel I was justified and it was plain horrible luck, we even ran the river twice and I still lost BOTH pots. Second one, yeah, I called off a stack and dude flopped a gapped wheel against my aces. So thats another thing I need to know, due to the sheer number, is this normal? or am I making too much of this?


One additional edit. The reason this is a problem is because you work so long and hard to steal micro pots to flush it away on one bad call. Its definitely interesting, and different.

 

[canbora]

SO......to anyone that cares to read this.

I've decided that after much study and experimentation that I'm going to shelf this cash game journey that I was recently only. I just don't think I like to play cash games long term, endlessly. I like being a rec player. Jumping in for a few hands when I have a minute or winding down after a tourney. For me, long term, its boring and fruitless, and frustrating. And because of the variance and the fact no one "has" to do anything. They only do when they have monsters and then you're beat. Otherwise everyone is a nit or a TAG. And I see people doing random acts of pure "boneheadedness" endlessly (possibly do to bordem/frustration) then return to their previous state. But the problem is, you have to have a monster while they do it, what are the odds of that? I can tell you, for me it zero lol. Out of thousands and thousands of. The only time I doubled up was monster vs monster. I NEVER caught someone when they were doing one of these bonehead plays. With GTO and such no one is "great" but people are good enough few players are calling you down with pure garbage like they use to back in the day.

I simply just don't like it (long term)

Its worth noting, according to poker tracker. I am "winning" I'm ahead. If you were to ask me, I would have said that i was still "break even" , possibly even a slight loser. But not according to poker tracker. I'm up. So I'm not saying this as a predictable "well obviously you don't like it, you're a loser". I'm not, I'm "winning" and I still don't like it.

Some take aways for those that care:

1. You're buy ins. the 20 minimum buy ins is...........fine. But I'm telling you, you want 50.

2. Multi table. I dont see how you can play your best game this way, but maybe its for the best to not overthink. Just play the math. Do what you can, but it seems mmmmmmmmmost people 4 table. I know people do more, but it SEEMS most are doing 4.

3. Take risks. Induce action. You have to get lucky in poker in SOME way. If you have odds, either in outs or fold equity or the two combine. Put your money in.

4. Dont play scared. Have an "eff you' attitude lol. Going off of number 3, dont play scared, but play with respect. Remain in control but with a slight edge of "eff you". If your in the BB with KJ offsuit and the button limps and the SB calls. "eff you.. we're playing for more" Raise to 10BB. If they make a small raise and you're sitting there with KJ suited, bump it to 12 or 15. Don't be scared. You'll get nowhere plyaing scared or like a nit.

5. Show your bluffs. Once in a while,,,,make a huge bluff, then show it. get action going. Otherwise you're doomed to hours of sitting there constantly folding hands.


I could keep going but if anyone wants to have a convo about any of this, I of course invite it. If not thanks for reading. Maybe someone can take something away from this.

 

[Station_Master]

You say no one has to do anything, but the blinds are there. They are what incentivises all action. If your opponents are too tight then it's easy to steal or play them post flop when the board comes low or middling cards. Anyway most of the money comes from the fish who are playing too wide, if some of the regs are too nitty that their problem, better for you ad you get to play with fish.

Personally I think cash is the best form of poker, 100bb deep or more. For me more fun than tournaments.

 

[dreamer13]

In a cash game you can watch your opponents without directly participating in the game. The nicknames of your opponents will not be visible, but after watching 4-5 hands, you can roughly understand the skill level of your potential opponents and evaluate your chances against them.

 

[canbora]

You say no one has to do anything, but the blinds are there. They are what incentivises all action. If your opponents are too tight then it's easy to steal or play them post flop when the board comes low or middling cards. Anyway most of the money comes from the fish who are playing too wide, if some of the regs are too nitty that their problem, better for you ad you get to play with fish.

Personally I think cash is the best form of poker, 100bb deep or more. For me more fun than tournaments.

I realize thats the point of the blinds, but........it just seems to not be enough to make it worth while. Hence while a lot of people do straddles in live games. I realize money is relative. but I'd think most would agree the blinds at 2/5 are far more valuable than at 10NL.

As far as people being too tight. As i said in another thread, I should be arrested for grand theft larceny at the table. About 1/3 of my total hands played are "won without showdown"

And yeah I noticed that about the fish. Its like usually 2 fish at a table of 4 regs. And the fish are "feeding" the regs until they bust.

Dont get me wrong at all. I L O V E this game. If I dont play for a while. I'll buy in and play 2NL, JUST to play the game. I love it that much. I enjoy it and i have fun! I'm strictly talking about making cash poker in to my jam. ......and I just.......I dont like it in that way. I'm not done. I'll do more in the future. I need to reflect on this while. But I felt this way before and after this experiment and after many thounsands of hands. I'm still feeling this way.

I agree. My happy place is 150bb or more. I like having 200-300. Sadly, you cant sit down with that amount. online poker needs hardcore revamping. And we need GG poker in my region it seems to be the best so far. They;re cleared but they need to partner with a brick and mortor casino for us to play.

In a cash game you can watch your opponents without directly participating in the game. The nicknames of your opponents will not be visible, but after watching 4-5 hands, you can roughly understand the skill level of your potential opponents and evaluate your chances against them.

mmmm you need far more info that. but it CAN give you an idea, yes. Like if you see them limp call UTG, yeah...that tells ya about you need to know.

As far as learning the opponents.....i dont know what to say because i could say so much. I could do a YouTube vlog series on this alone in this experiment in what ive seen people do. And just because you learn them and play good poker doesnt mean youll win. I could give SO many examples (as im sure we all can). I was playing 100NL yesterday. I had QQ preflop. We have raising match mulitway, All fold but one.. one of the biggest fish you'd ever see in your life. We go to the flop, I bet big because I know theyll call on a rainbow board. They call. Now the river they'll almost all in because theyre short stacked, which was my plan. I finish them off, they call.... they turn over. 22. I can't even believe it, even for them. They called all that with 2's. And they hit a third 2 on the turn. I did not improve on the river. I doubled them up. What else was I suppose to do? I have zero regrets, just giving an example. The amount of times I've seen such activity in just a matter of weeks is astounding.

 

[canbora]

6. Watch out for what I call Super GTO players. People that get into GTO WAY too much. You'll know these people in many ways. Dead give away is they're three betting you on the BB with K4 suited and such related hands. Every time a person has done this, they gave the pot to me in the end. As vince van patton says, suited garbage is still garbage. Don't be doing that. The GTO is playing against itself. not real players, when nits and tags raise you and you have garbage, fold or maybe just cold call to defend. Dont give them free money.

7. If someone limps in or small raises, they are FAR more likely to stay in, even with a big raise. If its multiple people, they're all calling. Do with this information what you will. Its part of the "frenzy''.

8. Im learning that huge bets, even all ins are ....stimulating and actually make people consider it if not make the call. I had what I call a Mega Draw. Where you're a coin flip or even a favorite without a made hand. I had rearise the UTG small raise, a considerable amount. He calls after being in the tank. I'm purposely playing half stack strategy. Pot is double my stack on the flop. I raise all in. He calls with K 10 offsuit. He had middle pair with an ace on the board and also called my three bet. Turn brings a card favoring me even stronger, I'm actually the favorite.....river is a blank. He wins. Again, do with that what you will. (This was 50NL)

9. I dont care for poker tracker, but I'll admit im new and I probably need to get use to it. It is handy, ill admit. But is it worth buying? Not sure. Probably. But I just think its a distraction. Theres too much info. I admit I made a mistake against noob. I had the info I needed in MY notes but was distracted and POSSIBLY cost me draining him. I had a monster hand. Nut flush with royal flush draw, I had notes that if this guy auto checks he has nothing. I was distracted from all of the info and missed/forgot this. I bet, he folds. He's a bluffer and thers a slight chance he could have bluffed on the river to get more value

10. People slow play over pairs in cash (vs tournies) to trap. Most espeically aces, but Ive seen K's Q's and J's . Also...let it be known I hate overpairs in cash games LOL. They are my biggest wins and biggest losses. My problem, yes I know. But still, my opinion. I feel more.......comfortable....... having high cards. Like... what do you ya do with the darn things? Its such a bizarre emotional sensation to me.

11. People do NOT 3 bet enough. I've even seen pros make this comment. You need to 3 bet. Also...because of this, 3 betting is a powerful tool. When you 3 bet someone, unless they have aces, kings, or AK...it stops them dead in their tracks for a second. Every single time.

12. As previously mentioned in a reply. Regardless of stakes. It seems to be 4 regs to 2 recs. sharks to fish, noobs to pros....whatever you want to use as a comparison. Don't engage the regs, engages the noobs. They're "feeding" the rest of the table. only engage the regs if you're going to steal or if you're pretty sure you have a monster hand.

13. I've seen few of what I'd call actually "good" players. Most regs are like previously mentioned,..id compare them to like the elite level common enemies in video games. They aren't bosses, but they're good enough to give you a hard time if you have a table full of them. They still make noobish mistakes. It seems to me, its not what you do in this game, its why you do it.

 

[fundiver199]

9. I dont care for poker tracker, but I'll admit im new and I probably need to get use to it. It is handy, ill admit. But is it worth buying? Not sure. Probably. But I just think its a distraction. Theres too much info.

You can set up the HUD of PT4 to show as much or little information as possible. So while new to using the program maybe just select a really simple HUD setup with only a few stats focusing mostly on preflop. And then add more stats later, when you are used to processing information, and also have larger samples, which are generally required for postflop stats to be usefull. A HUD could be as simple as showing VPIP, PFR, 3-bet and number of hands.

In truth HUD-data dont affect the majority of decisions on the table. But when they do, they can be a big help in making better decisions. Say you get 3-bet after opening AQo UTG, and the 3-better is a VPIP 17/ PFR 13 with a 3-bet of just 2% over 519 hands. Why would you not want to have that information, so that you can simply fold your AQo and get rid of a massive reverse implied odds situation?

A HUD can also help in table selection for cash games. You mention, that cash tables typically revert around 1-2 fish. Having a HUD running gives you an objective way of determining, if there are fish at your table or not. And if the answer is not, or you are directly to their left (meaning usually out of position), then you just leave and find another table.

 

[canbora]

You can set up the HUD of PT4 to show as much or little information as possible. So while new to using the program maybe just select a really simple HUD setup with only a few stats focusing mostly on preflop. And then add more stats later, when you are used to processing information, and also have larger samples, which are generally required for postflop stats to be usefull. A HUD could be as simple as showing VPIP, PFR, 3-bet and number of hands.

In truth HUD-data dont affect the majority of decisions on the table. But when they do, they can be a big help in making better decisions. Say you get 3-bet after opening AQo UTG, and the 3-better is a VPIP 17/ PFR 13 with a 3-bet of just 2% over 519 hands. Why would you not want to have that information, so that you can simply fold your AQo and get rid of a massive reverse implied odds situation?

A HUD can also help in table selection for cash games. You mention, that cash tables typically revert around 1-2 fish. Having a HUD running gives you an objective way of determining, if there are fish at your table or not. And if the answer is not, or you are directly to their left (meaning usually out of position), then you just leave and find another table

Do you work for poker tracker? Because that was actually a pretty good sales pitch.

Yyyyeah.. I'll give it some thought. Those are some good points you make.

Some of those stats though, huh? ....man ... Had a fish the other day 0 PFR, 0 3-bet. Limp caller, all the way. Even when opening UTG with AQsuited. I couldn't never gage what he had so I just went with the math and value bet the whole time. Impossible to get reads on the guy.

 

[fundiver199]

Do you work for poker tracker? Because that was actually a pretty good sales pitch.

Ha ha. No but I have been using the program, since I started playing online poker seriously in 2016. So I am very used to having it as an aide. And while the HUD-data actually dont matter to most decisions, as I already said, I feel kind of naked, when I play without it