calling out a stack-bluff in a live game

[zebranky]

so, for online players, this doesn't apply.
However, for us live players, this is an interesting point on etiquette and the rules.

In California (and Las Vegas), the basic rule on a bet is that any forward motion of chips (ie, a hand holding chips) from your stack is considered a bet. Some casinos set a specific distance (2 inches, 5 cm, whatever), but the basic idea is that any chips that move forward are part of your bet unless you verbally declare your bet before moving them.

Last night, I had one guy constantly "stack bluffing." He'd pull one stack of 20 chips out of his main stack, hold it well forward of the rest of his chips, look around, put the stack down (well forward of any "minimum distance") on the betting area, look around, and then lift all but 2 or 3 chips back off the table and put them back in his main stack. Locally, this is known as stack bluffing - trying to gauge your opponents reaction to a large bet/raise without committing to doing it. It's technically illegal, but people do it all the time. I asked him to stop because it was rude, but he just gave me a look and kept doing it.

Finally, I caught him doing it when I had trip Kings, A kicker.
I told him to stop and put all the chips back in action, as they had come forward and were part of his bet. He got really annoyed (especially when the dealer agreed with me, and called over the floorman who also agreed), and ended up leaving the casino at the end of the hand angry that I had called him out (and, of course, taken 60 bucks from him by doing so).

Here's what I'm interested in hearing - is it appropriate to call him on this once I've warned him once? Just let him keep doing it? I can't contest it when I'm not in the hand, but it looks like I'm just being cheap trying to get his chips if I point it out when I'm in the pot.

 

[mrsnake3695]

Yes it is absolutly appropriate. If he is warned once in case he just didn't know the rule and he continues to do it then by all means call him out. And great timing on calling him out too. Getting him when you had a monster was great and I hope a lesson to him but i doubt it.

I say way to go, although it really should have been the dealers place to enforce the rule not yours but since the dealer obviously wasn't you were well within your rights.

And actually you can also do it even if you are not in the hand, protecting the field is perfectly legitamite, although waiting until you had him was much better for you.

 

[zebranky]

Yes it is absolutly appropriate. If he is warned once in case he just didn't know the rule and he continues to do it then by all means call him out. And great timing on calling him out too. Getting him when you had a monster was great and I hope a lesson to him but i doubt it.

I say way to go, although it really should have been the dealers place to enforce the rule not yours but since the dealer obviously wasn't you were well within your rights.

And actually you can also do it even if you are not in the hand, protecting the field is perfectly legitamite, although waiting until you had him was much better for you.

Maybe its just where I play - but they stick by the guns that if you're not in the hand, you cannot make objections (ie, stack bluffing, string bets, misdeals, anything). Basically, if the live hands are letting a person get away with these small infractions, its a "no harm, no foul."
Like most casinos, because the "small" rules are regularly broken, most dealers only enforce when asked to or a player objects.

 

[Bill_Hollorian]

In bigger games, it is up to the players in the hand to call it or not.
In smaller games it is usualy up to the dealers, and floor.

See it is an angle shot to be sure. The thing is if I know the dealer will call it, I can safely take the shot. As it is a house rule I can trust is enforced by the house.

If it is left up to the players, they may choose to let me slide as you did, until it is advantageous for them to call me out on it. Now, I may be punished for my angle shot.

And that insures noone gets free angles.

In smaller games it is usually up to the house as these are considered entry level, and players may get angled without being aware. so the house watches out for them a bit.

As for giving him a warning, no way. This is not an etiquette issue. He is trying to doing something against the rules and you ensure he doesnt.

Bill H.

ps if you are NOT in a hand, you should not call it, as the player may or may not want to pick off the angle that time or not. For example he may be on a draw, the guy puts a bunch of chips and then takes most back perfect, you can draw, then some idiot NOT in the hand says wait he has to leave it all out there, and suddenly you are folding...