5nl 3 bet theory and ranges

[GreenDaddy1]

I've got a bit out of control with my 3 betting since I moved over to using 3 bet or fold, could use some help redefining my ranges and importantly WHY I'm 3 betting rather than calling or folding. Feel like I need to totally start over and rebuild from the ground up, be reminded of a few basic concepts.

I'm mostly at 5nl right now, so keep that in mind.

If I go back to basics, I know that basically we can outline three purposes behind 3 betting:

1. Value. We need to be getting value from our big hands that have a lot of equity. This range might vary a bit depending on villain position/range and our position. At the micros we can probably just stick to a tight linear range of value 3 bets.

2. Bluffs. Additional 3 bets we can do in position vs villains who open a wide range and/or have a high fold to 3 bet. We can employ this in the blinds vs wide steal ranges. We can also bluff on the button vs a player with very high fold to 3 bet, but should be thinking about whether the blinds are likely to complicate things by cold calling the 3 bet and making it a multiway post flop. We're looking for folds here, but we want to bluff hands that are going to give us easy decisions on the flop about whether we continue or just give up quickly. Such hands are suited aces and suited connectors. Low pairs are another option, and even any ace or suited kings in some circumstances. At the micros we probably do not want to go overboard with the bluffs, preferring to stay out of trouble. Sticking to suited aces (particularly A2s-A5s) is not a bad way to go to ease into it.

3. Isolating weak loose players and fish we want to be heads up against post flop and in position. This is also a type of value 3 bet, because we can extract value with a wider range of hands vs weak opposition who will either pay us off with weak made hands or overfold post flop when we show aggression.


A final thing I need clarified is whether I go back to doing any cold calling, eg:
a) on the button
b) in the big blind
c) to keep a fish yet to act involved
d) to stop a nit/tag from folding out everything except the likes of KK+ and AK.
e) multiway when I am in position and have good implied odds and 3 betting just seems pointless.
Some seem to be adamant these days to never call, others will do it in cases like I've outlined here.
Hands like AQ, AJ & KQ are tempting to cold call when we can't justify a 3 bet. Medium and low pocket pairs are tempting to call full stop. Example: A nit opens UTG and we're in the CO with AQo, if we 3 bet he continues with a very strong range of maybe just KK+ and AK. If we call we have his whole 10-15% range still in, despite the risk of getting squeezed. Or same situation but we have 99. What are we doing here?
So please also help me once and for all solve the issue of whether I am doing any cold calling whatsoever!

As a basis for building microstakes ranges, is there anything critical I am missing here? Or anything I have misunderstood?

Grateful for any help, ranges, links to other ranges or articles etc. Thanks.

 

[braun_kan]

I agree with all your 3-betting reasons.

The vast majority of my 3-bets at 2nl are for value. The two main value situations are 3-betting with premiums from any position, and 3-betting linear/wide with good top pair hands when I am IP against weak players with a very low fold to 3-bet who have a super weak range on the flop.

3-bet bluffs are a lot more rare and I am generally not doing it against any position higher than the CO, and of course it must be against a reg with a fold to 3-bet at least >50, preferably >60. Suited wheel aces are really nice for this since they block some of strongest hands the opener has and are very playable post flop or can sometimes just win with top pair. I will do some 3-bet bluffs with suited connectors as well but it sucks that they unblock the strong cards so I prefer high fold to 3-bet or being IP if I bluff with those hands.

I also like to 3-bet aggressively against villains with a weak mental game on reg tables since this gets them on tilt and more likely to spew.

 

[fundiver199]

Another purpose of 3-betting or for that matter any other aggressive action preflop, is to have an uncapped range and more chances to take the pot away later. If for instance the flop comes AK4 rainbow, its much easier for us to represent that board, if we took an aggressive action preflop rather than a passive. So even if we actually just have say JTs with a backdoor flush and the gutshot to broadway, maybe this does not really matter, because we can just C-bet and get a lot of hands to fold.

With that being said never taking a passive action preflop is certainly not optimal. In big blind especially we need to do a fair amount of defending by calling, because we are getting a good price against a small open raise, which most players use these days. We are also closing action, so when we call in big blind, we are sure to see a flop for the amount of chips, we put in.

Another valid reason to just call might be, that we have position postflop, so mainly when we are BTN but also to some extend CO, especially if BTN is a tight and passive player. Or we have a hand, which perform best with a deep SPR, like a small to medium pocket pair. In tournaments the best way to play small pocket pairs against prior action is often to rejam with an effective stack of say 15-20 bigs. But in cash games we are normally 100BB deep, and in that case what does it really do to 3-bet a hand like 44? The hand has terrible removal, and when you get action, you are usually kind of lost postflop, unless you flop a set.

 

[Plut41]

What rooms are you playing? I just moved to NL5 on pokerstars, feels like NL2 but with tons of squeez play. For now trying 4betting to make light 3bets fold. Works kinda 50/50 for now, maybe if I refine my strat it could be profitable.

 

[GreenDaddy1]

I play at 888.

 

[eetenor]

I've got a bit out of control with my 3 betting since I moved over to using 3 bet or fold, could use some help redefining my ranges and importantly WHY I'm 3 betting rather than calling or folding. Feel like I need to totally start over and rebuild from the ground up, be reminded of a few basic concepts.

I'm mostly at 5nl right now, so keep that in mind.

If I go back to basics, I know that basically we can outline three purposes behind 3 betting:

1. Value. We need to be getting value from our big hands that have a lot of equity. This range might vary a bit depending on villain position/range and our position. At the micros we can probably just stick to a tight linear range of value 3 bets.

2. Bluffs. Additional 3 bets we can do in position vs villains who open a wide range and/or have a high fold to 3 bet. We can employ this in the blinds vs wide steal ranges. We can also bluff on the button vs a player with very high fold to 3 bet, but should be thinking about whether the blinds are likely to complicate things by cold calling the 3 bet and making it a multiway post flop. We're looking for folds here, but we want to bluff hands that are going to give us easy decisions on the flop about whether we continue or just give up quickly. Such hands are suited aces and suited connectors. Low pairs are another option, and even any ace or suited kings in some circumstances. At the micros we probably do not want to go overboard with the bluffs, preferring to stay out of trouble. Sticking to suited aces (particularly A2s-A5s) is not a bad way to go to ease into it.

3. Isolating weak loose players and fish we want to be heads up against post flop and in position. This is also a type of value 3 bet, because we can extract value with a wider range of hands vs weak opposition who will either pay us off with weak made hands or overfold post flop when we show aggression.


A final thing I need clarified is whether I go back to doing any cold calling, eg:
a) on the button
b) in the big blind
c) to keep a fish yet to act involved
d) to stop a nit/tag from folding out everything except the likes of KK+ and AK.
e) multiway when I am in position and have good implied odds and 3 betting just seems pointless.
Some seem to be adamant these days to never call, others will do it in cases like I've outlined here.
Hands like AQ, AJ & KQ are tempting to cold call when we can't justify a 3 bet. Medium and low pocket pairs are tempting to call full stop. Example: A nit opens UTG and we're in the CO with AQo, if we 3 bet he continues with a very strong range of maybe just KK+ and AK. If we call we have his whole 10-15% range still in, despite the risk of getting squeezed. Or same situation but we have 99. What are we doing here?
So please also help me once and for all solve the issue of whether I am doing any cold calling whatsoever!

As a basis for building microstakes ranges, is there anything critical I am missing here? Or anything I have misunderstood?

Grateful for any help, ranges, links to other ranges or articles etc. Thanks.

Thank you for posting

The number 1 goal in NL is to stack our Villains.
We seldom do that preflop at 100bb stacks

The number 1 mistake your V make is calling too often post flop. At your limits we want to play a much wider range preflop because we have a post flop skill advantage but we do not want to build big pots preflop with a wide range when we can do it on flop and turn and even river.

3 betting or folding preflop is to realize equity on our strong hands and avoid reverse implied odds because we think our V will play correctly post flop. If they are that good leave the table.

Why risk your stack on a 55-45 when you can get stacks in 100-0.
At the lower limits we focus on ROI not raw equity realization.

The key here is to know the proper ranges for our actions

you state AQ, AJ & KQ are tempting to cold call when we can't justify a 3 bet

All of those hands vs 5nl players are a 3 bet fold to 4 bets. Why? Reverse implied odds-better to raise to 7bb and fold it than to call hit a pair and put 30bb+ into the pot and lose to hands that dominate us from raiser or to call and let 2 more players over call and reduce our equity.

If you are just going to call then you use the suited AX as calls as we can then flush over flush in a multiway pot. Again think about getting stacks not winning pots.
Our calls need to be hands that can make the nuts and get paid but not tempt us to stack off badly. 76off can make straights but will not temp us to chase if we make a pair of 7's etc.

You are right you want to add in many more calling hands but first you want to study the proper ranges.

Hope this helps

 

[eetenor]

Example: A nit opens UTG and we're in the CO with AQo, if we 3 bet he continues with a very strong range of maybe just KK+ and AK. If we call we have his whole 10-15% range still in, despite the risk of getting squeezed. Or same situation but we have 99. What are we doing here?
So please also help me once and for all solve the issue of whether I am doing any cold calling whatsoever!

As a basis for building microstakes ranges, is there anything critical I am missing here? Or anything I have misunderstood?

Grateful for any help, ranges, links to other ranges or articles etc. Thanks.

Thank you for posting

The above example is why we 3 bet the AQ off and the 99 -if the V is a nit we win soo much when they fold preflop and risk so little post flop that it is 100% raise in this spot.

How?
From your example If the V opens top 15% but only continues top 5% that means 66% of the time we win preflop.

If the V raises 2.5bb and we 3 bet to 7bb and they fold preflop we win 6.6 times =26.4bb
we lose 7bb 3.4 times = 23.8bb we have a net profit of 2.6bb
However that is if they win all the times they do not fold. If the V just calls our raise not 4 bets then we will win some of the those hands.

That is just a simple example and does not take into account when we can stack our V post flop which is always the goal. We can also win with bluffs and pot control and over fold post flop vs a player who remains a NIT post flop.

Versus that player type we always want to be head-up not multiway so we always 3 bet to ISO as over tight play is weak as well as over loose play is.

This is of course dependent on our skill level. If we do not play well post flop at this time as we are learning it is better to fold dominated hands AQ off etc and set mine JJ-22 due to reverse implied odds.

On a table filled with fish why fight the best fish just let the others give you their chips. Yummy fish and chips lol

Hope this helps

 

[GreenDaddy1]

Thank you for posting

The above example is why we 3 bet the AQ off and the 99 -if the V is a nit we win soo much when they fold preflop and risk so little post flop that it is 100% raise in this spot.

How?
From your example If the V opens top 15% but only continues top 5% that means 66% of the time we win preflop.

If the V raises 2.5bb and we 3 bet to 7bb and they fold preflop we win 6.6 times =26.4bb
we lose 7bb 3.4 times = 23.8bb we have a net profit of 2.6bb
However that is if they win all the times they do not fold. If the V just calls our raise not 4 bets then we will win some of the those hands.

That is just a simple example and does not take into account when we can stack our V post flop which is always the goal. We can also win with bluffs and pot control and over fold post flop vs a player who remains a NIT post flop.

Versus that player type we always want to be head-up not multiway so we always 3 bet to ISO as over tight play is weak as well as over loose play is.

This is of course dependent on our skill level. If we do not play well post flop at this time as we are learning it is better to fold dominated hands AQ off etc and set mine JJ-22 due to reverse implied odds.

On a table filled with fish why fight the best fish just let the others give you their chips. Yummy fish and chips lol

Hope this helps

Thanks.

So are we looking for something like this? I'm just rattling this off the top of my head without being exact or heading to the equity calculator, but just to make sure I'm in the ball park with my thinking.

Example: 100BB deep range vs Reg TAG or NIT open raise

3 Bet & continue: KK+, some AK (may find tight fold to 4 bet vs uber nit)
3 Bet & fold to 4 Bet: AQ, AJ, KQ, QQ-99 (assuming nothing suspect about their 4 bet stat)
Call on Button (and in BB if price decent, or BB vs SB): AXs, 76s-T9s, 75s-T8s
3 Bet bluff when out of position: AXs, 76s-T9s (adjust based on their fold to 3 bet and pfr stats. May never do this, or may do this with even more hands)
Call any position: 22-88 (set mine)

Deliberately leaving a lot of lesser broadway hands out of there to avoid dominated spots.

Correct play vs Loose/Passive/Fishy types or short stacks would take some different lines.

 

[eetenor]

Thanks.

So are we looking for something like this? I'm just rattling this off the top of my head without being exact or heading to the equity calculator, but just to make sure I'm in the ball park with my thinking.

Example: 100BB deep range vs Reg TAG or NIT open raise

3 Bet & continue: KK+, some AK (may find tight fold to 4 bet vs uber nit)
3 Bet & fold to 4 Bet: AQ, AJ, KQ, QQ-99 (assuming nothing suspect about their 4 bet stat)
Call on Button (and in BB if price decent, or BB vs SB): AXs, 76s-T9s, 75s-T8s
3 Bet bluff when out of position: AXs, 76s-T9s (adjust based on their fold to 3 bet and pfr stats. May never do this, or may do this with even more hands)
Call any position: 22-88 (set mine)

Deliberately leaving a lot of lesser broadway hands out of there to avoid dominated spots.

Correct play vs Loose/Passive/Fishy types or short stacks would take some different lines.

Thank you for responding

We do not want to use one range for both TAG and NIT players. A TAG player is never going to fold 50% of their UTG open range to a 3bet but the nit you described would fold 66% of range. That is why we can have a wide 3bet range vs NIT.

VS the TAG we want to know if they overfold post flop if so we can again widen that range preflop but will now have to have post flop skills to not lose more than we win.
An example is 3 betting A7s preflop using the A as a blocker expecting the TAG to fold flop or turn but then over playing Axxx boards and running into a better AX or a slow played set etc.

So what we want to do vs standard TAG at 100bb is use a chart to understand their preflop range then adjust our own range based on post flop equity realization as the TAG will be calling more 3 bets.

At your current skill level if you only 3 bet top of range vs TAG's open when you are OOP you would be making only a small ROI mistake if at all. The better you get at ranging V the more you can open up your OOP 3 betting.

Hope this helps

 

[Pissy_Knish]

Thank you for responding

We do not want to use one range for both TAG and NIT players. A TAG player is never going to fold 50% of their UTG open range to a 3bet but the nit you described would fold 66% of range. That is why we can have a wide 3bet range vs NIT.

VS the TAG we want to know if they overfold post flop if so we can again widen that range preflop but will now have to have post flop skills to not lose more than we win.
An example is 3 betting A7s preflop using the A as a blocker expecting the TAG to fold flop or turn but then over playing Axxx boards and running into a better AX or a slow played set etc.

So what we want to do vs standard TAG at 100bb is use a chart to understand their preflop range then adjust our own range based on post flop equity realization as the TAG will be calling more 3 bets.

At your current skill level if you only 3 bet top of range vs TAG's open when you are OOP you would be making only a small ROI mistake if at all. The better you get at ranging V the more you can open up your OOP 3 betting.

Hope this helps

The more I dig for validation for 5 betting QQ AI Pre, the more I think I should've folded lol.

Only 15 hands HUD info on player 5NL 9max @ ACR

Villain in EP2 (97BB) KK(Effective stack)
Hero LJ (112BB) QQ

(JJ+,AQs+,AKo) Was the range I told myself he was on, wishful thinking??

 

[Station_Master]

The more I dig for validation for 5 betting QQ AI Pre, the more I think I should've folded lol.

Only 15 hands HUD info on player 5NL 9max @ ACR

Villain in EP2 (97BB) KK(Effective stack)
Hero LJ (112BB) QQ

(JJ+,AQs+,AKo) Was the range I told myself he was on, wishful thinking??

Yeah wishful thinking in those positions, probably more like KK+ and maybe AK. QQ can flat the 4bet but if you shove your only getting called by better or a possible flip with AK

 

[Mac557]

I go by the old advice of polarising my 3bet range IP and merging it OOP. Most of my 3bet range OOP will be happening from the SB though, as I'm comfy playing OOP with the better odds that the BB gives you. If I'm playing a weak player and have position then I'm more inclined to 3Bet a merged range so long as they have a reasonably large stack (70BB+), especially if there are aggro villains behind who will make it more expensive when I have KJs type hands on the button.

 

[Funtast]

I've got a bit out of control with my 3 betting since I moved over to using 3 bet or fold, could use some help redefining my ranges and importantly WHY I'm 3 betting rather than calling or folding. Feel like I need to totally start over and rebuild from the ground up, be reminded of a few basic concepts.

I'm mostly at 5nl right now, so keep that in mind.

If I go back to basics, I know that basically we can outline three purposes behind 3 betting:

1. Value. We need to be getting value from our big hands that have a lot of equity. This range might vary a bit depending on villain position/range and our position. At the micros we can probably just stick to a tight linear range of value 3 bets.

Not really. For example against nitty openers and lot of 3bet folders you always want to polarize.

2. Bluffs. Additional 3 bets we can do in position vs villains who open a wide range and/or have a high fold to 3 bet. We can employ this in the blinds vs wide steal ranges.

Yes some players you can 3bet +EV any 2. Especially in steal/resteal scenario.

We can also bluff on the button vs a player with very high fold to 3 bet, but should be thinking about whether the blinds are likely to complicate things by cold calling the 3 bet and making it a multiway post flop. We're looking for folds here, but we want to bluff hands that are going to give us easy decisions on the flop about whether we continue or just give up quickly. Such hands are suited aces and suited connectors.

I would't 3bet too many hands that block autofolds here. 45s is a better bluff candidate than 89s for ex.

Low pairs are another option,

Never ever do that please. Against strong openers fold them and against weak players call them. Playability with low pairs is simply terrible.

and even any ace

From BB as resteal its good, otherwise nono.

or suited kings in some circumstances.

Much better than any ace because of playability and you unblock more trashaces they can fold. (There are way more trash ace combos than king combos they autofold).
However on the button I like to call suited Kx combos against weak players. On BB standard call.

At the micros we probably do not want to go overboard with the bluffs, preferring to stay out of trouble. Sticking to suited aces (particularly A2s-A5s) is not a bad way to go to ease into it.

Against bad players I prefer calling them IP.

3. Isolating weak loose players and fish we want to be heads up against post flop and in position. This is also a type of value 3 bet, because we can extract value with a wider range of hands vs weak opposition who will either pay us off with weak made hands or overfold post flop when we show aggression.

Yes. Same as the limp iso.

A final thing I need clarified is whether I go back to doing any cold calling, eg:

Cold calling 2bet or 3bet?

a) on the button

A lot.

b) in the big blind

Even more. 30-60%.

c) to keep a fish yet to act involved

If I can 3bet for value I don't care of fishes behind me.

d) to stop a nit/tag from folding out everything except the likes of KK+ and AK.

If extremely high fold to 3bet, yes call with your value 3bet range might be good. But I would prefer 3bet any 2 then..

e) multiway when I am in position and have good implied odds and 3 betting just seems pointless.

Depends on the players, generally you don't want to waste your equity against aggro fishes for ex..

Some seem to be adamant these days to never call, others will do it in cases like I've outlined here.
Hands like AQ, AJ & KQ are tempting to cold call when we can't justify a 3 bet.

Suited call, 3bet/fold. General rule: The more playability and implied odds you have, the more you can call.

Medium and low pocket pairs are tempting to call full stop

If there is no real agression behind you is to be feared the low pockets can be called as well. But i wouldn't call 22-44 except for the BB or against an aggro fish.

. Example: A nit opens UTG and we're in the CO with AQo, if we 3 bet he continues with a very strong range of maybe just KK+ and AK. If we call we have his whole 10-15% range still in, despite the risk of getting squeezed.

3bet/fold or fold.

Or same situation but we have 99. What are we doing here?

Fold or call.

So please also help me once and for all solve the issue of whether I am doing any cold calling whatsoever!

Again: Coldcalling against what? 2bet, 3bet?

As a basis for building microstakes ranges, is there anything critical I am missing here? Or anything I have misunderstood?

There are so many spots. It's hard to cover it all in such a thread. Calling and 3betting ranges are based on 3 things:
1. Player stats who raised
2. The positions you and villain/s are in
3. Players to act after you.
(4. Your fear of variance)

Grateful for any help, ranges, links to other ranges or articles etc. Thanks.