4 betting versus flatting pocket Queens. + a pocket Kings question

[nasty bent gorilla]

Assuming a rough effective stack depth of 100bbs, is it ever profitable to 4bet, with the intension to fold to a shove, essentially, an information 4bet against a very tight player who you perceive will fold AK? Or is it always a flat call with the intension of seeing a low flop, maybe folding on the turn if they barrel with a large bet?

Additionally, is flatting KK more profitable, in the long run, against this type of villain?

Thanks

 

[Station_Master]

In what positions? I think it's generally better to call but the later position the more I would be inclined to 4 bet. That said if it's a tight player like you say there really is no point 4 betting as they will only continue when you are beat so just call and play from there.

4bet folding a value hand is not generally a great play, your 4bets should be stuff you want to stack off with e.g. AA, KK and bluffs like A5s K8s that are easy folds. Depending on positions and villain QQ is also strong enough to 4bet and call a shove.

 

[nasty bent gorilla]

In what positions? I think it's generally better to call but the later position the more I would be inclined to 4 bet. That said if it's a tight player like you say there really is no point 4 betting as they will only continue when you are beat so just call and play from there.

4bet folding a value hand is not generally a great play, your 4bets should be stuff you want to stack off with e.g. AA, KK and bluffs like A5s K8s that are easy folds. Depending on positions and villain QQ is also strong enough to 4bet and call a shove.

Just thinking out loud.

4bet gives equity denial against AK. If they have TT/JJ + AK, you juiced the pot when ahead. They may call with these hands , knowing they will realise quite a lot of their equity against you, as they perceive you as fairly tight/solid.

It's easier to play post flop as they are equally wary of your range. Low flop v their range OOP, bet for value/info on low flop, If they call, you go into x call/ x fold depending their turn action. In position is obviously easier to play on flop/turn.

This a very specific villain, generally in full ring NL, who has specific, narrow range that 3bets, not generally position dependent. Button v BB, either way, will only change the dynamic, a little.

I was trying to work out if you could exploitatively 4bet QQ for info/value.

 

[Gallarado777]

Of course you can 4bet against a tight player and try to knock him out like AK, and if he goes all-in, you have a great hand to call him with KK well, I think it'll be difficult for him to go all-in because you don't want to play this 100bb hand so much

 

[Aballinamion]

Assuming a rough effective stack depth of 100bbs, is it ever profitable to 4bet, with the intension to fold to a shove, essentially, an information 4bet against a very tight player who you perceive will fold AK? Or is it always a flat call with the intension of seeing a low flop, maybe folding on the turn if they barrel with a large bet?

Additionally, is flatting KK more profitable, in the long run, against this type of villain?

Thanks

StationMaster pointed out position which is important for decision making.
Yes, we can 4-bet from time to time when having just 100 blinds, a 4-bet will put only 20% of our stack in the pot.
At the micros it’s wise to be unbalanced, 4-betting more pure values than bluffs. Player will hardly fold AK, almost never fold JJ+, so we must have that in mind, whether they are tight or not.
Against a NIT it’s wise to flat if it’s a heads-up pot.

 

[Station_Master]

Just thinking out loud.

4bet gives equity denial against AK. If they have TT/JJ + AK, you juiced the pot when ahead. They may call with these hands , knowing they will realise quite a lot of their equity against you, as they perceive you as fairly tight/solid.

It's easier to play post flop as they are equally wary of your range. Low flop v their range OOP, bet for value/info on low flop, If they call, you go into x call/ x fold depending their turn action. In position is obviously easier to play on flop/turn.

This a very specific villain, generally in full ring NL, who has specific, narrow range that 3bets, not generally position dependent. Button v BB, either way, will only change the dynamic, a little.

I was trying to work out if you could exploitatively 4bet QQ for info/value.

Just to play devils advocate.... Do you really know villains 3betting range and what he is calling folding or shoving v a 4 bet? It sounds great if he is folding AK and calling TT, but he could also 5bet shove AK and deny your equity. He might slow play his AA/KK and not 5bet you.

I have 1000s of hands on some regs and I still don't know how they play v 4bets. Maybe I am not observant enough! But every spot is slightly different and you see so few of them it's tough to know for sure.

I am not saying it's bad to 4bet QQ but I would generally be doing it in later positions and calling in other spots, i.e. only when you are 4betting for value not as a wierd thin value/bluff/info raise!

 

[KRANKES]

Assuming a rough effective stack depth of 100bbs, is it ever profitable to 4bet, with the intension to fold to a shove, essentially, an information 4bet against a very tight player who you perceive will fold AK? Or is it always a flat call with the intension of seeing a low flop, maybe folding on the turn if they barrel with a large bet?

Additionally, is flatting KK more profitable, in the long run, against this type of villain?

Thanks

It is never always, you gotta mix it up. And how can you flat KK, my finger will never allow to.

 

[Aballinamion]

I have 1000s of hands on some regs and I still don't know how they play v 4bets. Maybe I am not observant enough! But every spot is slightly different and you see so few of them it's tough to know for sure.

Yes, it is hard to know because regulars balance their ranges, calling sometimes and 3-betting/4-betting sometimes. It’s definitely hard to know for sure, most likely we will never know no matter how much skilled we are.
This is the reason that our winrate again regulars will be something like 1-2/100 BB. It’s so small that we play against regulars when we have no other option. It’s much better to face fishes when our winrate can be 50/100 BB, as Nathan Williams already proved.

 

[takinitSLEAZEE]

is flatting KK more profitable, in the long run, against this type of villain?

It can be. The more information you have on the villain the better, imo. Racing w/KK is a no brainer w/a smaller stack but around100 bbs I suppose it could go either way depending on position and the villains stack size. Good question.