Overbet a good play here?

[Bombjack]

This was a good hand. Beginners' table and I was small blind. Pretty much everyone called so how could I not, with my 10-7 suited? Figured I must be getting good implicit odds in case I flopped a monster.

The flop gave me top two pair and I was first to act, with 6 other people to go after me. Pretty sure I had everyone beat, as it was highly unlikely anyone was holding exactly the remaining two tens or sevens, and I'd take my chances that no-one had pocket fives. And I was certainly not going to let anyone outdraw me, with there being a flush draw on. So with $1.50 in the pot (don't laugh - it's beginners...) I put in a huge over-bet of $5, which I thought would either represent a steal and get someone all-in, or at least discourage the draw. Was called by BB who had an overpair (jacks) and someone else with an A-K flush draw.

The turn brought a middle card that could have made a straight but I doubted anyone would call an overbet with such a draw, so I put the callers all-in with another $5 bet. Both called. The river was another 10, which gave JJ a better 2 pair than I had before, but now I had a full house.

Thought it was an interesting hand because the AK suited had pot odds to call in both flop and turn, and so did JJ on the turn because he now also had a straight draw. Although by betting big I reduced their implicit odds because they couldn't raise if they made their hand on the turn or river.

Nice feeling when you bust out 2 players at once and triple up with a $30 pot on a $0.05/0.10 table!

Any comments? Thinking about this hand I was wondering in general if it's a good idea to give people pot odds to call by not betting too high, when you are favourite to win? In which case should I not have overbet the pot, or was the overbet a good play?


***** Hand History for Game 2910020910 *****
$10 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, January 16, 18:50:01 EDT 2006
Table Beginners #1065396 (real money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 5: Yeti27 ( $19.50 )
Seat 1: MuddyRRiver ( $10.26 )
Seat 9: Douglas42O ( $14.30 )
Seat 3: Parasite55 ( $4.75 )
Seat 7: bispoloco ( $19.30 )
Seat 2: CoquitlamMic ( $10 )
Seat 8: Marsfrogie ( $6.10 )
Seat 6: deuce_magnet ( $9.35 )
Seat 10: FredericMor ( $19.83 )
Seat 4: NipperTipp ( $9.50 )
Yeti27 posts small blind [$0.05].
deuce_magnet posts big blind [$0.10].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Yeti27 [ 7h Th ]
bispoloco calls [$0.10].
Marsfrogie calls [$0.10].
Douglas42O calls [$0.10].
FredericMor calls [$0.10].
MuddyRRiver calls [$0.10].
CoquitlamMic folds.
Parasite55 folds.
NipperTipp calls [$0.10].
Yeti27 calls [$0.05].
deuce_magnet raises [$0.10].
bispoloco calls [$0.10].
Marsfrogie calls [$0.10].
Douglas42O folds.
FredericMor calls [$0.10].
MuddyRRiver calls [$0.10].
NipperTipp calls [$0.10].
Yeti27 calls [$0.10].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, 5s, 7c ]
Yeti27 bets [$5].
deuce_magnet calls [$5].
bispoloco folds.
Marsfrogie folds.
FredericMor folds.
MuddyRRiver folds.
NipperTipp calls [$5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
Yeti27 bets [$5].
deuce_magnet is all-In.
NipperTipp is all-In.
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
Yeti27 shows [ 7h, Th ] a full house, Tens full of sevens.
deuce_magnet doesn't show [ Jc, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and tens.
NipperTipp doesn't show [ Ks, As ] a pair of tens.
Yeti27 wins $0.70 from side pot #2 with a full house, Tens full of sevens.
Yeti27 wins $0.25 from side pot #1 with a full house, Tens full of sevens.
Yeti27 wins $27.55 from the main pot with a full house, Tens full of sevens.

 

[poettic1]

at this lvl it is hard to over play your hand. i might have checked thinknig some over zealous flouder will bluff at it and the two guys will stay in. thing is at these tables money is normally no object(or little concern) so the guys with the flush draw is going to do so no matter what odds he's getting. and the guy with the jacks has no reason to think you are not making a play with TPTK, so he made the right play. nice hand well played

 

[Effexor]

Well played? not in the least, just lucky.

I had the same exact starting hand (I was in the BB and saw the flop for free ) and same exact flop just yesterday in a no limit micro game, except the turn came a 6 and the villian was holding 89 and hit a straight and I lost $3. If this had happened to you, you would have lost a lot more than I did from overbetting the pot.

 

[poettic1]

86/14 not gonna happen allot but when it does it sux thats what setting the guys pot odds is all about. you got cought on sry you are still in a cash game reset and take it to the chaser.

 

[blankoblanco]

Well played? not in the least, just lucky.

I had the same exact starting hand (I was in the BB and saw the flop for free ) and same exact flop just yesterday in a no limit micro game, except the turn came a 6 and the villian was holding 89 and hit a straight and I lost $3. If this had happened to you, you would have lost a lot more than I did from overbetting the pot.

So you want him to bet less, making villains MORE likely to see the turn with a draw? You're always going to lose more from overbetting with the best hand if other players are a) dumb enough and b) lucky enough. You're also going to make more money in the long run from dumb players calling these large bets on draws and without odds. I don't really see your point.

 

[Effexor]

Absolutely bet less. Pot size bet would have been more appropriate, maybe over the pot size but not 4 times the pot.

The question was "is this overbet a good play". I don't think that 2 pair warrants such an extreme overbet, and I detailed an actual hand I had where such an overbet would have be a disaster. The hand posted is very results oriented. If you bet the pot, you are NOT giving chasers pot odds to call, so why risk 4 times that on the flop? Punish the chasers yes, but not to this extreme in my opinion.

 

[poettic1]

man that's just bad math. cash games are about making money in the long run. that said in the long run the way he played it will make him more money than he'll loose at those stakes. sorry you have the fear, but there is no reason to give your opponent a reasonable call. if you are going to win the hand a majority of the time, and can get your opponent to call, why not bet high? all this does is make you more and busts out flounders more often. the pot sized bet looses you less and wins you less, safe yes but not the reason to play a cash game. winning you more while taking bigger risks is actually mathmatically correct.

 

[joosebuck]

bet based on the size of the pot. there is almost no reason to bet more than the pot, youll [mostly] only get called by hands that will dominate you.

 

[poettic1]

bet based on the size of the pot. there is almost no reason to bet more than the pot, youll [mostly] only get called by hands that will dominate you.

while i agree with you for medium lvl play, i don't for small or high at all. at small lvls players are less likely to get off hands they connect with, just statistics man sry. and at higher lvls it is a play on ones psyche "why would he raise so much here". betting value based on the pot is only correct if you: A) don't think they will call your bigger raise and want something out of them, with best or near best hand. or B)information, you are not sure where you are.

so if you are sure where you are in a hand and your oppnent either can't put you on a hand, or won't get off theirs. you should stick it to them.

example
you have JcJd
and the board reads jh 6h 2d
you clearly have the best hand
you put your opponent on a draw
but by your math you bet the pot max. now there is 2x the pot if he calls he's getting 2/1 for his money roughly the right odds. he'll call and make money in the long run you won't with this play.
if you over bet correctly 2 x the pot there is now 3x and if he calls 2x you are 3/2.
the flush draw is 33%( 2 won't play) so in this case you will make money in the long run and not him.