Did I play this wrong?

[schnozzinkobenstein]

pokerstars Game #18753827024: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/07/11 - 22:26:58 (ET)
Table 'Saskia' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: streebb ($38.85 in chips)
Seat 2: Jeder lacht ($10.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Pokerhelm200 ($2 in chips)
Seat 4: dkca2230 ($10.55 in chips)
Seat 5: Dewey5629 ($10.60 in chips)
Seat 6: abhishad ($10.60 in chips)
Seat 7: AbsoluteApeX ($10 in chips)
Seat 8: PW-toXic ($9.95 in chips)
Seat 9: alfie19 ($22.90 in chips)
Dewey5629: posts small blind $0.05
abhishad: posts big blind $0.10
Pokerhelm200: posts small & big blinds $0.15
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Jeder lacht [Ks Kh]
AbsoluteApeX: folds
PW-toXic: folds
alfie19: folds
streebb: calls $0.10
Jeder lacht: raises $0.40 to $0.50
Pokerhelm200: folds
dkca2230: folds
Dewey5629: folds
abhishad: folds
streebb: calls $0.40
*** FLOP *** [8h 5c 2c]
streebb: checks
Jeder lacht: bets $1
streebb: calls $1
*** TURN *** [8h 5c 2c] [8s]
streebb: checks
Jeder lacht: checks
*** RIVER *** [8h 5c 2c 8s] [2h]
streebb: bets $0.30
Jeder lacht: calls $0.30
*** SHOW DOWN ***
streebb: shows [3s 2s] (a full house, Deuces full of Eights)
Jeder lacht: mucks hand
streebb collected $3.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.90 | Rake $0.15
Board [8h 5c 2c 8s 2h]
Seat 1: streebb showed [3s 2s] and won ($3.75) with a full house, Deuces full of Eights

Do you guys think I should have bet the turn? What do you guys usually do on the turn in this situation when you have position and the guy checks? Should I have bet to figure out what he has? Now that I think of it, does EV (wrong term?) tell me checking is the best course of action? If I bet usually he would fold if he didn't have three of a kind, and if he did have it, he would have gotten more money from me. What do you guys think?

 

[feitr]

well depends on stats, but i would tend to bet the turn as well, just because so few 8s call preflop, so you don't really have to be worried about him turning trips. On a board like that, most of your average player's range would be fds/straight draws, 66/77 etc. after calling the flop and for every single one of these turn is a brick. But villain seems like a huge fish, so...

 

[Tygran]

yikes villain is horrible... my favorite part is the call on the end with a full house lol

however you didn't charge him enough to keep playing with a bad hand either.

Players like this you have to constantly be betting for value against because all the do is call, call, and call some more. top pair any kicker is usually good enough to be 3 streets against them and KK is easily good enough.

If he has an 8 oh well... he'll probably call you down with any pair, ace high, king high, any type of straight or flush draw and maybe some other random stuff. so the stuff he calls you with you beat far outnumbers the stuff he calls you with he doesn't.

bet the turn.

 

[The Shrog]

I would bet the turn here as well. Villains play is just awful.

 

[Dr_Dick]

Schnozz,

Unfortunately you have to fire a second barrel here to find out where you stand. In position, opponent checking to you, and you have KK on a good flop. Yes, it could be a trap betting into a set but your turn bet will most likely get you a check (hoping you bet again) from the villain on the river.

As others have pointed out, the range of hands your opponent could hold here means a turn bet is necessary. But no one puts Villain on 32s.

 

[c9h13no3]

Looks standard to me. Dry flop, bet for value. On the turn a large portion of villain's range just jumped ahead of us, so we pot control, and then an easy call of the micro-bet on the end. No need to re-open the action on this board without a full house.

I think this was played perfectly, and it would be my standard line in the same situation. Maybe make your preflop raise a little larger to account for the dead money in the pot.

And to all you talking about firing a second barrel to figure out where you stand, this is a standard Way Ahead/Way Behind situation. If you have a read that this villain plays stuff like T3s OOP to a raise preflop, then I think we can bet the turn profitably enough since he'll be on a draw frequently. But without that read, I think its a pretty standard check on the turn.

You guys are saying that 77, 66, and weak draws are his turn range, but those probably aren't calling a turn bet either if you fire the second barrel.

 

[feitr]

i disagree c9. An 8 is a very small part of villain's range, and micro cash games are full of calling station donks. ie. you'll get paid off by draws, and why would villain fold 22-QQ (without the sets) when the turn was basically a brick? Always checking behind, when only a very small part of a villain's range just went ahead, is not the way you want to be playing micro stakes at all. Even if you will fold out some of the villain's range on the turn, it isn't like you are giogn to be inducing many river bluffs at NL10 anyways so whatever. Fact is, villain's range here is obviously about as wide as you can ever see, so value bet all day. Obviously, as played, hero lost the min, but that still doesbn't change the fact that checking behind here is wrong imo.

 

[schnozzinkobenstein]

Maybe make your preflop raise a little larger to account for the dead money in the pot.

I had read a good preflop raise strategy is to raise by 3x/4x bb + 1x bb per limper. Should I raise differently since I'm playing micro?

The term dead money confuses me as I've come up with a couple different definitions. What exactly is it?

however you didn't charge him enough to keep playing with a bad hand either.

Betting pot on the flop wasn't good enough? Somewhere around there is my standard bet when I have overpair and the flop is not scary. I feel that betting much more than that will keep stragglers from holding on for the turn and thus reduce my very likely rake.

As far as whether we are betting the turn or not, most of the time he is not going to hit his trips or two pair there, but I could end up losing a lot if he slowplays me. The only other factor I can think of is bluffing, but I don't feel like I get bluffed much at these stakes.

The fact that villain called my flop bet might be a strong indicator that he had top pair. Another reason to be afraid?

 

[Dwilius]

Bet the turn. If you're really afraid of the 2 eights in the deck you're probably going to get the chance to check behind on river. Draws, pairs and unconvinced aces are much more likely.

 

[c9h13no3]

Bet the turn. If you're really afraid of the 2 eights in the deck you're probably going to get the chance to check behind on river. Draws, pairs and unconvinced aces are much more likely.

Well what do you think villain's calling range is on the flop? Assuming he's an unknown, I'd say its like:

8x - Crush us
OESD's - 16% to hit on river
FD's - 18% to hit on river
77, 66, 99 - We crush them
Monsters - Crush us

All the 8's just beat us, and the rest have less than 4:1 equity in the pot. Giving a free card here is only really bad against known draw chasing players who won't bluff the river. The mid pair bluff catching hands are going to fold to a second barrel almost always, and the OESD's and FD's may fold to a $2.50 bet, since their implied odds are reduced on the river.

Sure if you have a read that this guy is a station, then you can pound it out. But I don't think checking behind the turn is missing out on that much value.

Also the dead money I'm referring to is the poster who posted the big & small blind out of turn. Its like having a straddle or antes. There's more forced money in the pot, so you should be opening your raising range & increasing your raise size.

As far as raising differently, I think that strategy works just fine for micro-stakes. I like 4xBB raises in late position & playing 6max, but that's just personal preference.

 

[Tygran]

Betting pot on the flop wasn't good enough?

flop bet was just fine.

if you have no read on the villain at all you can play it cautiously after being called..if you know or strongly suspect the villain is this bad you gotta bet the turn though... that's what I was talking about.

I didn't read OP quite closely enough..no read on villain so i don't totally mind the action although I'd prefer a bit larger bet on the river if you are going to bet... betting small like that just sorta screams "I have something but am not at all confident in it". I'd rather check it through than bet such a small amount.

 

[c9h13no3]

I'd prefer a bit larger bet on the river if you are going to bet

He called a bet from villain on the river...

 

[vanquish]

Well what do you think villain's calling range is on the flop? Assuming he's an unknown, I'd say its like:

8x - Crush us
OESD's - 16% to hit on river
FD's - 18% to hit on river
77, 66, 99 - We crush them
Monsters - Crush us
random BS that we crush

FYP

 

[schnozzinkobenstein]

Lol, Tygran, apparently you didn't read OP quite closely enough twice.

 

[feitr]

Well what do you think villain's calling range is on the flop? Assuming he's an unknown, I'd say its like:

8x - Crush us
OESD's - 16% to hit on river
FD's - 18% to hit on river
77, 66, 99 - We crush them
Monsters - Crush us

All the 8's just beat us, and the rest have less than 4:1 equity in the pot. Giving a free card here is only really bad against known draw chasing players who won't bluff the river. The mid pair bluff catching hands are going to fold to a second barrel almost always, and the OESD's and FD's may fold to a $2.50 bet, since their implied odds are reduced on the river.

Sure if you have a read that this guy is a station, then you can pound it out. But I don't think checking behind the turn is missing out on that much value.

Also the dead money I'm referring to is the poster who posted the big & small blind out of turn. Its like having a straddle or antes. There's more forced money in the pot, so you should be opening your raising range & increasing your raise size.

As far as raising differently, I think that strategy works just fine for micro-stakes. I like 4xBB raises in late position & playing 6max, but that's just personal preference.

Again, the odds of an 8 is so remote why are you considering it? Sure, on occasion, villain will show up with an 8, but you lose value of the rest of villain's range by checking turn. The fact is, on this board texture, having an 8 is no stronger than having a 2 or a 5 or 33, 44, 66, 77 since very few players in NL10 are going to be raising anything that hits this flop. So either hero has overcards, or an overpair. So why is villain going to necessarily fold to a 2nd shot on the turn, especially if he is somewhat station like, as are many micro stake players. Draws probably will call, since again most players at this level don't like laying down flush draws.

I honestly do not get the mentality behind "oh wow less than 10% of his range just went ahead of me, omg wa/wb i must check". There is a complete difference between villain raising a flop/donk betting on a two tone flop and hero checking behind (if they let you) when the flush draw completes, because a fd is a large portion of a person's range in a given situation. An 8 is a tiny portion of villain's range here. Anyways it is read dependent, since if villain actually had good stats it is possible that they would be holding something like 87/89, but since i'm sure villain is something likke 55/4/0.5, you really want to extract as much value as you can. Even an unknown, in NL10, imo can be assumed to be a pretty poor player with a wide range on this flop.

 

[Boeggs]

I would have bet at least half the pot after the turn card to see where I stand. By checking you have absolutely no idea. Then I would have made my decision what to do next based on what he did after my bet.