anyone wanna gimmie their opinion on this?

[Googlez]

Game: No Limit Hold 'em
Level IX: 50 Ante 200/400 Blinds (25 Minimum Chip)
Average Stack: 23,952.09 (5,000 starting chips)
Remaining Players: 167 (800 started)
Seat 1 : rfbbb starts with 28,800
Seat 3 : eutow starts with 10,425
Seat 4 : tommycat starts with 18,950
Seat 5 : jfbbjb starts with 24,825
Seat 6 : Dinerman starts with 2,825
Seat 7 : zeroNT starts with 35,400
Seat 8 : mb300sl24v starts with 39,625
Seat 9 : BuzzBBerkeley starts with 20,500
Seat 10 : Rahroo921 starts with 2,150
Seat 3 : eutow has the dealer button
>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<
zeroNT dealt down Qh 8d
rfbbb posts the ante 50
eutow posts the ante 50
tommycat posts the ante 50
jfbbjb posts the ante 50
Dinerman posts the ante 50
zeroNT posts the ante 50
mb300sl24v posts the ante 50
BuzzBBerkeley posts the ante 50
Rahroo921 posts the ante 50
tommycat posts the small blind 200
jfbbjb posts the big blind 400
mb300sl24v: n
rfbbb: ty
Dinerman folds
zeroNT calls 400
mb300sl24v calls 400
BuzzBBerkeley folds
Rahroo921 calls 400
rfbbb folds
eutow folds
tommycat calls 200
Seat 2 : hurley3203 starts with 51,150
jfbbjb checks
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< [ 6h 8s 7c ]
tommycat checks
jfbbjb checks
zeroNT bets 400
mb300sl24v raises 400 to 800
Rahroo921 folds
tommycat folds
jfbbjb calls 800
zeroNT raises 2,400 to 3,200
mb300sl24v calls 2,400
jfbbjb folds
>>>DEALING TURN<<< [ 5c ]
zeroNT bets 1,300
mb300sl24v raises 1,300 to 2,600
zeroNT calls 1,300
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< [ 6d ]
zeroNT bets 1,250
mb300sl24v folds
zeroNT takes back 1,250
zeroNT does not show hand
zeroNT wins 14,850
>>>SUMMARY<<<
Hand Ended: Tuesday September 6th 8:05:08 PM CDT 2005
Total Pot: 14,850
Board: [ 6h 8s 7c 5c 6d ]
Seat 1 : rfbbb lost 50, folded pre-flop
Seat 3 : eutow (button) lost 50, folded pre-flop
Seat 4 : tommycat (small blind) lost 450, folded on the flop
Seat 5 : jfbbjb (big blind) lost 1,250, folded on the flop
Seat 6 : Dinerman lost 50, folded pre-flop
Seat 7 : zeroNT bet 6,250, won 14,850, net +8,600, did not show hand (cards were Qh 8d)
Seat 8 : mb300sl24v lost 6,250, folded on the river
Seat 9 : BuzzBBerkeley lost 50, folded pre-flop
Seat 10 : Rahroo921 lost 450, folded on the flop




Im just curious as to what you guys think he was holding that he would re-raise me... raise.... re-raise my bet, then fold on my last bet on the river..


I was stumped... i was shocked...i thought i had lost it for sure goin into the river, but i thought i'de give him a decent size raise, that looked like i wanted him 2 call but with enough money to make it worth-while..

 

[robwhufc]

A discussion topic - bless you Googlez.

I don't know what he was holding - pair of 8's same as you? Overpair? Nothing at all?

I assume the reason he was re-raising was to get you to fold. He had the large stack so probably thought he could bully you out of it - you did only have pair of 8's so you were lucky to survive - I don't know whether i'd have bet for as long as you did with such a shaky hand.

Why did he fold at end? - because board showed 5,6,7,8,6. No doubt you would have been beaten him if you had 9. He tried re-raising on turn to try and scare you off - as soon as you called I imagine he'd just given up trying to bluff, and accepted he'd have to fold.

He was probably playing a bit loose as he had a large stack - i've been guilty of doing this myself, and actually prefer going into final stages of tournament with a smaller stack which I can throw around. You could have very easily lost this if he had any number of cards - people always moan about bad beats, but forget they win lucky pots as well.

Thanks for post - did you end up cashing in?

Edit - though re-reading it you had the same stack size as he did, so ????

 

[tenbob]

Id say you were knida lucky on this one, it looks to me like he was holding something like A5 or more likely A4. He had to have caught someing on the flop, even if it was a draw. The likelyhood as mentioned above is that he was giving you credit for the 9.

So wither he had you beat well never know, but probably, more that likely with the small straight, I know that i would have folded the 4 in this case. But well played.

BTW Did you make the money ??

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Fold preflop. Q8 in early position is yucky and will often get you into trouble.

If he did have A4 what is he doing calling a 2400 raise on the flop with nothing but a gutshot to a sucker straight (he's obviously a bad player, but this is stretching it even for a bad player)? It's hard to read minraises, which is why they tend to scare me so much. He's obviously a crap player if he's minraising twice then folding on the river to a 1/12 pot sized bet. Maybe he has something like AcTc or even Ac8c, as we all know how much crappy players love soooooted Aces.

 

[Googlez]

well i guess i should have given a little more input...

chipstack, we were both around even, so he can't really bully me.

I had played tight the whole time, everytime i had raised and it was called, ide show a strong hand....

same with him, we were both playing tight and well...

why did i call? i can't give you a justified answer, queen 7 and queen 8 are two hands i just generally like... dont ask, i don't know, i just seem to like playing them.

I put a little feeler bet of the BB to see if he would call or not.... he re-raised...

with top pair, i figured i'de scare him off now and re-re-raised him..

i figured my tight play from before would give me the respect to get him to fold...

he called...

on the turn, i figured i'de see if he has the straight or not with my bet....

when he re-raised my 1300 bet to 2600, it confused me.... if he had the 9 straight, he would have either raised more to extract more outta me, or just called... IMO at least..

river came a 6.... so i figured.... wtf, i've been betting all hand, i should continue it.... if i check, he might bet big, and i'll never get to see what he's holding.... which i strongly wanted to know..

he folds...

the only thing i could think of is that he had me on 2 pair on the flop.. 6 and 8s...

and i hit my boat on that river....

 

[chicubs1616]

FOLD PREFLOP

Calling with Q8 here is a DONKISH move...

 

[Googlez]

will you guys please note chip-stacks before saying "fold pre-flop".
chipstacks, blinds...

at that point in the game, felt comfortable enough to see a flop with noone raising the blinds....

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

So you have deep stacks - that doesn't stop Q8 from being a crap hand that will give you kicker trouble even if you get a decent flop (Qxx). Just because you have a big stack doesn't mean you should indiscriminately call chips in bad position with bad hands. Selective aggression (with good hands or in position with anything having gauged weakness) is where the fun's at with a big stack, not calling preflop in early position with a hand that you're not going to be comfortable with unless you flop 2 pair.

 

[Tammy]

I don't see anything wrong with him limping in at that point with the size of his chip stack. As for the rest of the hand, I probably would have been scared off with the raise and re-raises because of the straight draws on the board. As for your opponent, it looks as though he was bluffing on the "come" so-to-speak, trying to catch a straight and trying to push you around with his big stack. Didn't get his draw by river, and couldn't bully you, so he got the hell out of dodge. I'd say that his opponents play was far worse than Googleez limp-in w/ Q8.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

From the betting that was going on it he probabaly had two pair looking to catch the boat, folding cause he feared the str8 at the end.

 

[diabloblanco]

Two things: not a great hand to play, no matter what your chip stack when your at a full ring. Like it has been pointed out, you have kicker trouble even on a great flop. Also, with a measly pair of 8's the number of hands that you're beaten by on that flop are unreal. When he started jamming into you you should have folded. And I'm talking about on the flop, not the turn. You just got lucky by donking up a hand against another donk play where you happened to come out on the better side of it. I wouldn't be surprised if he folded the best hand. You lucked out on a hand you shouldn't have been in to begin with and played poorly all the way through. I read your follow-up post explaining what you were thinking, I just find it almost unfathomable that either of you were playing tight the whole time and just went batshit crazy on this hand.

On an unrelated note: Rob, did I misread your comment or did you actually say that you like to go into the later stages of a tournament with a small stack?

 

[Googlez]

diablo,
i find your insults rather offending..
so i take it im dead money..
lets go heads up?

notice i didnt ask you guys if my play was wrong or right.
I asked what you thought he was holding.
i was making a move, based on my reputation from all the prior hands.
obviously, it panned out.
i dont play every hand like this, and at that point, the raises felt like the correct thing to do. But this is of not importance. I do not need self-acclaimed experts telling me how i should or shouldnt play. I am beyond that level already, i am asking for your meer opinions as to what you guys thought he held.


One last thing... if i did lose the hand, i would be....
down to what, 28-29 k?
still in good shape.
and i wouldnt think about makin another stupid move anytime in the near future.

It was getting to that point in the tourny where i felt like i needed to make a couple of big moves and get my stack up to 55-60kish so that i wouldn't be bullyed by a lot of the larger stacks on other tables.

 

[diabloblanco]

Calm down pard. I was making a comment based on the information that you provided and I didn't insult you once. If you don't want advice, don't put yourself in a position to receive it. What hand could he have had? Well, he damn well could have had a hand that beat yours, so what were you doing calling all those big ass raises? You obviously had no clue what he had and said you called some of the raises to satisfy a morbid curiousity to find out. You called raises you shouldn't have caled and won a pot you got lucky to win. I never called you "dead money" at all. Relax, and if you can't take criticism, don't post a HH with a teribble play in it.

It wasn't my intention to insult you, and if you hang around you'll see that you simply don't know how to take me yet, but I am always honest in my replies and I call 'em how I see 'em.

 

[diabloblanco]

PS--If your beyond the "level" of having other improve your game, then what are you doing here posting a HH and asking a related question?

 

[poettic1]

oh man kid calm down you play hands like q8os you need an excelent flop to get out. i'm not saying limping isn't horrible but this hand is like fishing, you have to catch or release, thats it don't try ish with this hand it gets you in bad positions. plays that you don't wanna make in the first place puts you in positions you dont want to be in. that said try not to get defensive you came here for advise, we have collectively given you advise, granted diablos harsh but look at his name asshole. you need to learn that poker has nothing to do with pride, loose it you'll be better off

 

[Googlez]

diablo, i apologize for the outbust.

i never said i was past the stage of improvement, noone will ever reach that stage.
I said i am passed newbie concepts and have my own style that i play with, and i do not need to change my style, or stick to only playing top rated hands.

this is not a ring table, it was a tourny.
i was not calling, i was making a move.
I called on the river only so the pot wouldn't get so large that i would be pot committed if he decided to bet big on the river.


I know most people prefer being on teh button.
i prefer being able to act first.

I had hardly raised all tournament, and my chip-stack was mostly from being bet into..

I limped in...

i bet 400 to see how the others would take it.

mmbenz raised me.

I hadn't seen this guy holding anything other then AA, KK, AK, QQ, OR AQ
the time we spent on the table together....
so for him to raise on a flop like that, i didnt buy... he was probably trying 2 scare away my "draw" with his over-cards?

at this point, i was not "fishing"
i wasn't looking to pair my queen with a weak 8 kicker...
i was looking to take the pot.
Playing tight is great, it's good, its the only way to play. But you just have to take a pot here or there, and it was time i started takin a few pots here and there, changing up my game...

If you play tight all the time, thats great for ring. I dont do ring. And playing tight will just eat your blinds away later on. There's a point where you have to start mixing it up.

also, i came in here asking for advice, not on my play. but advice as to what do you think the other guy was thinking.

I already know what i was thinking and doing, idont need you guys to explain that to me and call me a moron for playing queen 8 off.... which is a stronger hand then you guys make it seem to be.

im trying to understand what you would think if you were in his shoes and didn't know what i was holding.... why would you call, etc. etc.



Once agian, i apologize for my out-burst diablo, i understand you were trying to help. But please understand, you cannot have everyone play the same style as you, because that doesnt work for everyone. People have their own styles, what we should aim to do is help each other understand what other people are thinking.... by picturing ourselves as the opponent and giving our input as to what we woudl think if we were in that situation...

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

It's good that you're actually thinking and able to 'justify' your play, so many people just hit the raise/call/fold buttons without thinking, but your thinking here is just wrong.

You prefer being in early position? Why do you prefer having to act first with no information on your opponents? Get Pokertracker and look at your stats by position and I practically guarantee you'll see you're losing chips in early position with that attitude.

You have absolutely no reason to "make a move" here. You have a near 100bb stack, and are comfortably placed. Again, if you're in late position and it's folded around then making a move here is reasonable as you could get better hands to fold and take the pot there and then, if you're called and go to a flop you're likely to be heads up and thus more confident if you hit top pair weak kicker on the flop, or if you're reraised it's an easy fold. But you're flat calling (I'm also interested how flat calling is "making a move", but I'll let that pass) with a crap hand with SIX people acting after you. These two things make the likelihood that you're going to get called by a hand that has you dominated one way or another very likely.

Q8o is not a good hand. It's not even a decent hand. If you hit a Q, your kicker is crap. If you hit an 8, there will probably be an overcard to your pair. If you hit the one straight it can make, the straight is obvious and not the nuts (JT9).

If you're at an incredibly tight table and looking to take the pot, then raise preflop. You say you'd hardly raised all tourney, well use the extra respect people will give to your raises to your advantage, though personally I'd wait until the blinds are bigger before doing this. However by raising you gain information on your opponents hands, and if someone calls your raise and the flop comes out rags, then it's far easier to steal the pot as you can put the callers on AQ etc. By flat calling you're (a) setting yourself up for trouble if you try and steal later on, as you have no information to base your steal on, and (b) encouraging K8/A8/QJ/etc to come along for the ride, which is bad for your hand if you do hit a flop.

That said, no matter how silly your play was, that m300 guy's was about 500 times worse, whatever he had.

 

[diabloblanco]

I won't add a word to DM's post except to say that I took no offense to your response to my post at all. I simply gave an opinion. You were out of position, with a very poor starting hand, and you weren't in any danger as far as stack size, so why "make a move"? You came out on the positive end of that fiasco because of a unexplainably bad play from someone else, but that should have cost you chips. When you play from EP, you need to stick to a fairly tight set of standards for playable hands, save for the few times you find yourself at an insanely loose table. This isn't a style issue, its a simple poker commandment. The later your position, the more you can open up your game and play some more interesting hands as long as your confident in your post-flop ability and are pretty sure you have an edge there. Playing silly starting hands from EP like that is bad for a myriad of reasons, but the biggest is that you have absolutely no chance to obtain information from your opponent during the betting rounds which virtually eliminates the chance of you gaining enough information about their hand to outplay them post-flop.

Like DM said, at least you are thinking about why you're making decisions, which puts you ahead of about 65% of the people playing online or live for that matter. But in this instance you probably won't find a decent player alive that will say you made the right play there no matter what your reasoning. Queen-Eight off is not even a decent hand and is monumentally worse than that from early position. That also isn't a style difference or opinion, its a fact. We have all been in hands we had no business in at many times, some we win due to dumb luck, others we lose because we shouldn't have been in them to begin with. Yours was the former rather than the latter, no shame in that.

On a happier note, thanks for starting this thread, as it envoked a reply that has been immortalized in my signature.

 

[Googlez]

again the arguement with queen 8 off..

i might be holding queen 8 off, but that's not what im playing for.

im not expecting to make it to a show-down... im expecting to just take the pot.
by the time the river came, it would be stupid for me to just check it, i only had one more shot @ taking the pot.

and i did.

Average Stack: 23,952.09 (5,000 starting chips)
Remaining Players: 167 (800 started)


i was looking to more than just place.
I wanted to make it to the top 3 at least.



also, about betting pre-flop with my image.
If i had bet pre-flop, this flop would not have helped me any.
If i had raised then, it would look like i was trying 2 defend my AA or KK from draws..

but by limping in, and then raising on a flop with straight draws... it would be concievable that i had hit a straight, made a set, or less likely, 2 pair...

but hey, that's just what i would assume if a guy guy with a strong stack limped in, and then raised with all connecting lowcards open.

 

[diabloblanco]

I guess your definition of "making a move" and mine are just different. I have gone over the hand so many times I have it memorized and in my opinion it was not played very well by you and played terribly by the river-folder. We can sit here and rehash this all week, and while that would be fun, neither of us will change our opinion, so ill let it go now. Stick around, we need more discussion around here and hand analysis.