$50 NL HE Full Ring:

[Station_Master]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.25/$.50

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

VP$IP

19

PFR

15

Currency

$

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.25/$0.50 - 7 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $36.27 (73 bb)
MP: $31.68 (63 bb)
MP+1: $52.34 (105 bb)
CO: $50.85 (102 bb)
BU (Hero): $50.00 (100 bb)
SB: $51.11 (102 bb)
BB: $53.15 (106 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with Q♦ Q♣
2 players fold, MP+1 raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $4.50, 1 fold, BB 4-bets to $11.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $6.75

Flop: ($24.25) 4♥ 6♦ J♣ (2 players)
BB bets $7.60, Hero calls $7.60

Turn: ($39.45) 5♥ (2 players)
BB bets $14.35, Hero?

So this is the same villain as the previous hand: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...-nl-he-full-ring-calling-541122/#post-6989416
I've added the spoiler in the thread now so you can see what he had.

With this knowledge how do you play turn? (and previous streets?) - fold, call or shove?

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Given that its a HJ open and a cold 4-bet over your 3-bet, his 4-betting range should be somewhat snug like maybe TT+, AK, AQs or even narrower than this. And for that reason I am on board with not 5-bet jamming and most likely only getting action from KK+ and sometimes AK, especially since you have position. As in other 4-bet pot you could select to not have any 5-betting range and just call with any hand, that you want to continue with.

Flop
Seems like a very standard call.

Turn
As in the other hand he seem to be very aware of pot geometry, and since this was a 4-bet pot, small sizing sets it up for a river jam. In fact if you call here, you will have put in $30 and only have $20 left behind. I dont think, TT bet again and commit itself to the pot, so the hands, you beat, are basically AK, AQs and pure bluffs, if he has any. But the question is, how often they take this sizing and make it a 3-street hand with very limited fold equity on the river? Which is quite the opposite of the other hand. And then of course you lose to KK, AA and JJ, which is a total of 15 combos. I think, its close, but I would never just call here, because it create a river spot, where either he just give up with his bluff, meaning he essentially got a free card to suck out on you, or he jam, in which case you have to call, because you are committed, but you are almost always beat.

 

[blueskies]

Against these types of guys, most of the time I generally play like a calling station when I have a good, but not great, hand. But sometimes I will raise or jam if I feel like I gotta protect my hand. They are not comfortable to play against and it's good that you have position on him, which makes it much easier, but they will still put you in uncomfortable spots.

As for whether to just call the turn or shove, it would depend on my feel of the guy. Does he keep pushing as long as you don’t push back? Does he give up when you push back? If I feel he’s gonna jam the river if I just call or if I feel he would fold if I jam the turn, I would just call. If I feel he would slow down and C/F the river though then I might as well jam the turn.

Of course, if we just call and an A or K comes on the river, and he jams, then we might regret not jamming the turn, but at least it’s just 8 cards. Fewer if he legit has a ace and/or king.

The small bet sizing kinda scares me though. Could definitely have AA or KK. In the other hand when he had $hit he was betting a much larger size looking to bully you off the hand. So if you have any read based on his sizing in other hands (i.e., does smaller bets mean value most times?), I would take that into consideration too.

 

[fundiver199]

The small bet sizing kinda scares me though. Could definitely have AA or KK. In the other hand when he had $hit he was betting a much larger size looking to bully you off the hand. So if you have any read based on his sizing in other hands (i.e., does smaller bets mean value most times?), I would take that into consideration too.

Yes thats a big red flag for me as well. Going into the turn there was only around $30 left in the effective stack with a pot of $40. So if he was bluffing, would he not have jammed to get maximum fold equity, and to also have at least some equity when called. Why devide it up into two more streets of betting, unless he wants to get called?

 

[pentazepam]

Yes thats a big red flag for me as well. Going into the turn there was only around $30 left in the effective stack with a pot of $40. So if he was bluffing, would he not have jammed to get maximum fold equity, and to also have at least some equity when called. Why devide it up into two more streets of betting, unless he wants to get called?

We can level ourselves to no use with so little information about the opponent.

I see it as a call, call, call almost 100% of the time. No need to overthink 100BB deep.

He can bet small because he has a top pair or middle pair and wants to get thin value by getting called by draws or worse pairs. He can also want to set his own price for his draws. Or he just mix it up to confuse his opponents.

What we can't do is let him bluff us off our overpair hands with such tiny bets.

If he really is so stupid that he bets different sizes depending on his hand strength, you get that information pretty quick.

 

[fundiver199]

He can bet small because he has a top pair or middle pair and wants to get thin value by getting called by draws or worse pairs.

If he 4-bet the GTO range, he have partials of AJs and KJs, but apart from that he never has any pair worse than QQ. So QQ is primarely a bluff catcher here, and the main hand, it beat, is AK. He should also have partials of AQs and KQs, but those are strongly blocked.

He can also want to set his own price for his draws.

But he is not setting his own price by betting 14.35 on the turn, when he only has around 30 left. On the countrary he is painting himself into a corner, if Hero jam, since he can then either call if off with incorrect odds or fold and not see the last card. A "block bet" should be much smaller like maybe no more than 20% of the remaining stack.

Or he just mix it up to confuse his opponents.

That is of course possible.

What we can't do is let him bluff us off our overpair hands with such tiny bets.

They are not tiny, when he have put in almost 70% of his chips on the turn. But you are right, that the GTO line is to either call or jam QQ on the turn, and with the Villains sizing mostly jam.

If he really is so stupid that he bets different sizes depending on his hand strength, you get that information pretty quick.

And this is definitely something to keep an eye on and take notes about it, if we pick up such tendencies from a reg.

 

[kdmeteor]

Imo against this guy, play as you did and jam the Turn. Against the field, raise on the Flop.

Why? Well, either you're willing to fold QQ without an overcard on the board, or you're not; this is the basic branch of the decision tree.

If you're not (and against this opponent, I don't think you should), then a raise is bad because you want money from weaker hands. Hence, play as you did and jam the Turn (or you could call again if you think that's more profitable).

If you are, then a call tells you nothing. Unless the stars field is very different from the GGPoker field, people love betting 3-bet boards they've missed with AK, and of course they bet overpairs as well. So you learn nothing by calling. Raise him, and if he jams, you fold.

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.25/$0.50 - 7 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $36.27 (73 bb)
MP: $31.68 (63 bb)
MP+1: $52.34 (105 bb)
CO: $50.85 (102 bb)
BU (Hero): $50.00 (100 bb)
SB: $51.11 (102 bb)
BB: $53.15 (106 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with Q♦ Q♣
2 players fold, MP+1 raises to $1.50, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $4.50, 1 fold, BB 4-bets to $11.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $6.75

Flop: ($24.25) 4♥ 6♦ J♣ (2 players)
BB bets $7.60, Hero calls $7.60

Turn: ($39.45) 5♥ (2 players)
BB bets $14.35, Hero?

So this is the same villain as the previous hand: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...-nl-he-full-ring-calling-541122/#post-6989416
I've added the spoiler in the thread now so you can see what he had.

With this knowledge how do you play turn? (and previous streets?) - fold, call or shove?

We continue to call on the turn. If we thought that villain had only KK and AA on its range preflop, we should've folded right over there. Once we called preflop we believe that villain have plenty of Ax and Kx that justify our calling on the turn.
If villain insists on the river, we might fold.

 

[Station_Master]

Imo against this guy, play as you did and jam the Turn. Against the field, raise on the Flop.

Why? Well, either you're willing to fold QQ without an overcard on the board, or you're not; this is the basic branch of the decision tree.

If you're not (and against this opponent, I don't think you should), then a raise is bad because you want money from weaker hands. Hence, play as you did and jam the Turn (or you could call again if you think that's more profitable).

If you are, then a call tells you nothing. Unless the stars field is very different from the GGPoker field, people love betting 3-bet boards they've missed with AK, and of course they bet overpairs as well. So you learn nothing by calling. Raise him, and if he jams, you fold.

I don't think there is stack depth to raise turn and then fold, the only realistic size is allin as 70% of villains stack is in the middle already.

 

[Station_Master]

Spoiler

so i jammed, i think it makes no sense to leave a tiny amount back as his bluffs (AK) may not fire, so i thought better to deny equity and if he has AA or KK so be it. Well he had TT, called off and i held, so a nice pot. Surprised he cold 4bet this wide to be honest, though GTO will actually take this 4bet a small portion of the time

 

[kdmeteor]

I don't think there is stack depth to raise turn and then fold, the only realistic size is allin as 70% of villains stack is in the middle already.

Ah right, this is a 4bet pot. You're right, in this case I don't think you get away from the Pot either way. Not against this guy anyway, but even against smn else; I think it's a mistake to fold to more bets on the Turn or River, assuming no K or A on the board.

 

[gustav197poker]

Ok, the information is very important to me.
If I meet this villain (I looked at the previous hand) I am 5-bet jamming preflop 100% of the time. Maybe I am not very good at using trackers, but I have a good memory and the previous hand is key for me and guides me to play that way.
Against an unknown V I play passive OTT and I evaluate my next OTR move based on the texture and bet of V.

 

[beazer76]

with the caveat out of the way that I'm not a winning player yet, I play preflop same with mandatory 3 bet and I don't 5 bet with QQ. I call same as OP preflop.
yes I'm calling on the flop ( I have the required equity to continue).
turn street I'm calling ( first thought of action for me).I like my show down value if I can get to a showdown. if villain shows any aggression i fold.