€400 NL HE Full Ring: The straight vs. apparent flush from a new player

[kdmeteor]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$2/$4

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

€

This was a hand played yesterday in my usual casino. I didn't properly write this down, so this is a reconstruction from memory where some details will be off. Blinds are 2/4; all currencies in €.

I have in the BN. The HJ limps, I make it 22. The BB and HJ both call.

Both of these players are quite weak; the BB in particular is someone I've never seen at the table. They clearly know some things about poker; they're not playing the game for the first time, but they probably haven't played live much, and they did limp from early position a bit earlier. I have a stack of about 600; the BB's stack is 284. I forgot the HJ's stack but it doesn't matter.

Flop comes (Pot = 68). The BB donks for 20. HJ folds and I call.

Turn comes (Pot = 108). BB checks and I decide to bet 60. BB is visibly reluctant and seems close to folding, but then calls.

River comes (Pot = 228) and BB goes all-in for 182.

Weird hand all around. What do you do here? If you think it influences the decision, I also looked at Villain and was like "flush, huh?" and they've said nothing, looking stoically at the board.

Spoiler

So the way villain played makes most sense with the flush, but I decided to call regardless because (a) I don't need to be right that often and who knows what any of this means; maybe they just have the ten (b) I did attribute some importance to the live reaction; if they had given a jokey response, I might have folded, and maybe (c) I had just lost a big hand a bit earlier. Villain had .

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Very large raise but guess its normal for live poker.

Flop
Obviously we are not folding top pair with a gutshot to a small donk bet of less than 30% pot. But I also agree with just calling, since you more or less have the worst possible kicker. With such a large preflop raise hands like Q7 or Q6 should not really be in anyones range, so unless he lead with second or third pair, which would be very weird, you are only ahead of draws.

Turn
As I said, he probably does not lead with bottom pair, so the 8 pairing did not help him. When he check, it pushes him more towards draws in my opinion, so I think, its fine to bet for value even with your kicker issues.

River
Given that my assumption was, he most likely had a draw, this is not the card or action, you were looking for. I dont think, you beat any value, and I also dont see, what he might be bluffing with, unless he is taking a hand like KJ and turning it into a bluff. You also lose to more than just a flush, since the board is paired, and KT is a better straight, if he somehow has that. So its not like, a naked T is all that high in your range, and he bet almost full pot. You could perhaps be chopping sometimes, but barring any live read I lean towards folding here.

Spoiler
So he did in fact have the busted draw pairing up but still bluffing kind of hand, I was talking about. I guess good call then? Its difficult to not be a little bit results oriented, when the guy was in fact bluffing.

 

[kdmeteor]

Given that my assumption was, he most likely had a draw, this is not the card or action, you were looking for. I dont think, you beat any value, and I also dont see, what he might be bluffing with, unless he is taking a hand like KJ and turning it into a bluff. You also lose to more than just a flush, since the board is paired, and KT is a better straight, if he somehow has that. So its not like, a naked T is all that high in your range, and he bet almost full pot. You could perhaps be chopping sometimes, but barring any live read I lean towards folding here.

Spoiler
So he did in fact have the busted draw pairing up but still bluffing kind of hand, I was talking about. I guess good call then? Its difficult to not be a little bit results oriented, when the guy was in fact bluffing.

Yeah, I definitely don't think this the result makes this an obviously good call. It seems like we were mostly on the same page with this one; I also thought I'm beat more likely than not; I need about 30% to make this call and I thought that was close -- close enough to possibly be swayed by the live read, which I only value for a few %.

 

[kdmeteor]

Preflop
Very large raise but guess its normal for live poker.

This isn't very related to the hand, but something I've thought a ton about. So I'm not raising 22 because it's normal for live poker. I mean, it is in fact normal, but I don't care; I'm comfortable doing things that no one else is doing. It's also normal to call from the SB every other hand, and I almost never do that.

My reasoning behind the RFI sizing is -- like, so you win in poker through mistakes of your opponents, right? And one mistake that most people make live is to call too much OOP. And if you really believe that, then well they make more of a mistake the larger your RFI sizing is, right? Like, it's probably a mistake to call a 3BB open with K5o, but it's a much bigger mistake to call a 5BB open with K5o. Which means you should just raise as large as possible. Which in fact is what I'm doing more and more -- if there is a strong player in the BB, I always go 12, but if it's a fish, I just think, how high can I make this before they do something about it? And if the answer is, they're just going to call every other hand even if you RFI for 6 BB (which would be 24), then I'm going to RFI for 24.

In this case I didn't really know too much about BB yet, but they're weak and most weak players call too much, so I went with 18 (to which I then added 4 because there was one limper).

It is ironic that I end up playing more like the weak players and less like the other pros on the table in terms of my raise sizing due to this reasoning, but like, I don't think that's a reason not to do it. If this is a case in which weak players end up making the better play by accident, then so be it.

 

[fundiver199]

My reasoning behind the RFI sizing is -- like, so you win in poker through mistakes of your opponents, right? And one mistake that most people make live is to call too much OOP. And if you really believe that, then well they make more of a mistake the larger your RFI sizing is, right?

Absolutely. In a tough online game BB would likely play a 3-bet or fold strategy against such a large open and hardly ever just call. But if you watch for instance the old videos from Stones Live Poker (before the Postle scandal), people regularly make the most ridiculous calls out of position, when for instance they only put in $3, and they face a $40 open raise.