$400 NL HE Full Ring: Set on a four to a flush

[Alucard]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$2/$4

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

Hi! Logged in and posting after an incredibly long while. Started playing some live poker recently at a local casino & thinking of putting some volume.
I havent studied in ages but my overall game should be solid.

The hand is played on stakes close to 1.5/3 usd
Game Dynamics - Players are loose generally, a lot of chinese players who love to gamble puts on straddles, it gets insane. In generally very loose willing to make big bluffs, I have had a bit of trouble adjusting to the game. This is my 3rd session in this game.

Hand -
We are playing 7 handed late into session. I was down 2 Buyins and wasnt playing well. Was playing passive & bleeding chips. Villain to my right was the next best player imo who is fairly aggro willing to steal & resteal but overall played a solid game

UTG opens to 4BBs & the villain at UTG+1 calls, we are on UTG+2 with TT & we 3b to 20BB, UTG folds Villain calls

Flop - KdTd3s
V checks we cbet to 15 ish BB V xc
Turn - 4d
V checks & I check back - might have been a mistake (we had around 80-100bb left to play)
River - 7d
V lead bet 60BB very quickly, given how fast he bet & becasue generally I wasnt sure how live players bluff in these spots I folded & showed my set. He showed AhJh as a bluff.

After he told me he was putting me in a pair because I checked back turn. So why not just bet or jam turn with my hand. I was trying to call down river on any sizing if it wasnt a diamond since I know he can run big bluffs, irl when the diamond river hit my head didnt work & I didnt think of him running a bluff.

Also Im trying to construct a range of our bets and checks on turn & river on this spot & whether like he said to just jam turn which would make him fold most hands. Also his bluffs and v bets on river as played. Would he bet any other low diamond cards like 9d or lower? Or just Ad & maybe Qd,Jd
Any help is appreciated

 

[Station_Master]

If you check back turn, surely it's to bluff catch rivers. Sure a 4th diamond looks scary, but he shouldn't have many offsuit hands in a 3bet pot. You could easily have AA or AK with the A of diamonds. So he probably only has A diamonds or a bluff for this 67%ish sizing, and you only need to be right 28% of the time or so, I think it's a call.

 

[puzzlefish]

I don't think we need to jam the turn, since that accomplishes just leaving us with situations where only flush draws or completed flushes will call us. Either bet for value on turn or check and bluff catch on the river. As played, it's to bluff catch so you have to follow through or you just bleed money for nothing.

Also, the bet on the flop is pretty small given the board texture. Why just 15bb?

One final thought: did you notice if he had a particular bet sizing and timing tendency on the river when value betting in other hands? Look for this at a live game.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
No problem with your 3-bet. Its quite large, but if they are very loose, its still for value.

Flop
This is basically the perfect flop, because he should never have top set, and you unblock both top pair and draws. Pot was 45,5BB, so 15BB was only 1/3 pot. I would have gone large here like 30BB to get as much money into the pot, before god forbid some bad card kills your action and/or make your decisions more difficult. If he call, pot would then be 105,5BB, and you would have an easy turn shove making it a 2 street hand.

Turn
Because of your small flop sizing, a turn jam would now be an overbet. With 3 to a flush I think, you will start to see top pair and most other hands, you beat, folding out to that sizing. But you can still bet small like 20BB into the 75,5BB pot and then probably check back the river, unless you fill up. If he jam or raise in some way, you will have to get it in.

River
You only beat a bluff, so its not like, calling with TT is any different from calling with for instance AK. But with that being said TT does not block any of the busted straightdraws, so maybe it is a decent spot to bluff catch. Especially when the guy is so wide, that he can show up with AJ offsuit here.

Results
Being a bit results oriented a larger flop bet would have made the hand easier for you to play and avoided this outcome.

 

[puzzlefish]

Especially when the guy is so wide, that he can show up with AJ offsuit here.

He had AhJh which is suited, but maybe you mean offsuit relative to the board.

 

[fundiver199]

He had AhJh which is suited, but maybe you mean offsuit relative to the board.

No I misread the hand history.

 

[Alucard]

I don't think we need to jam the turn, since that accomplishes just leaving us with situations where only flush draws or completed flushes will call us. Either bet for value on turn or check and bluff catch on the river. As played, it's to bluff catch so you have to follow through or you just bleed money for nothing.

Also, the bet on the flop is pretty small given the board texture. Why just 15bb?

One final thought: did you notice if he had a particular bet sizing and timing tendency on the river when value betting in other hands? Look for this at a live game.

I dont see a point in going any larger on flop, our 3b range crushes the board
this is my general sizing on 3b pots ip & ppl regualarly float very bad hands & make mistakes vs small sizings

regarding the player as I said he's active, straddles & resteal 3b, 4bets with any A high etc, not passive but not extremely aggro either. Probably the trickiest player for me in the table & we played a lot of pots for 8hrs+
I have run big river bluff jams on him

Another reason I folded is because I dont think the general live pop bluffs river that much & the fact he snap bet river. Many wouldnt imo

 

[Alucard]

Preflop
No problem with your 3-bet. Its quite large, but if they are very loose, its still for value.

Flop
This is basically the perfect flop, because he should never have top set, and you unblock both top pair and draws. Pot was 45,5BB, so 15BB was only 1/3 pot. I would have gone large here like 30BB to get as much money into the pot, before god forbid some bad card kills your action and/or make your decisions more difficult. If he call, pot would then be 105,5BB, and you would have an easy turn shove making it a 2 street hand.

Turn
Because of your small flop sizing, a turn jam would now be an overbet. With 3 to a flush I think, you will start to see top pair and most other hands, you beat, folding out to that sizing. But you can still bet small like 20BB into the 75,5BB pot and then probably check back the river, unless you fill up. If he jam or raise in some way, you will have to get it in.

River
You only beat a bluff, so its not like, calling with TT is any different from calling with for instance AK. But with that being said TT does not block any of the busted straightdraws, so maybe it is a decent spot to bluff catch. Especially when the guy is so wide, that he can show up with AJ offsuit here.

Results
Being a bit results oriented a larger flop bet would have made the hand easier for you to play and avoided this outcome.

once again I dont see the point of going big on flop. Ok we bet flop big and jam turn, what are we getting calls from? Qx & diamonds & lower set.
Obviously those hands would also call a 3 strt bet bet jam.
By betting small, we can induce + widen his range

My mistake as played imo was not building him a range on river for value bets & bluffs

 

[puzzlefish]

I dont see a point in going any larger on flop, our 3b range crushes the board

Isn't the point to get value from the top 10% hands that hit and the draws that would want to continue? So that would be AA, AK, and suited diamond premium connectors? You are letting more draws continue for a good price (for them) with the smaller bet size and you could be getting paid more for taking that risk.

Ok we bet flop big and jam turn, what are we getting calls from? Qx & diamonds & lower set.
Obviously those hands would also call a 3 strt bet bet jam.
By betting small, we can induce + widen his range

I think it's just an issue of optimizing the betting to get paid the most for the hand that you have. What other hands do you want to be coming along here that you think would fold for a 2/3 pot bet? The flush draws will be pretty happy either way, I think.

My mistake as played imo was not building him a range on river for value bets & bluffs

But you widened the range a lot more by betting small on the flop and checking the turn. So there are actually a lot more bluffs coming in as a result, but again you didn't call to "harvest" the bluffs.

 

[fundiver199]

once again I dont see the point of going big on flop. Ok we bet flop big and jam turn, what are we getting calls from?

On a non diamond turn we get calls from top pair. And on any turn we dont mind it, if Villain fold out their draws for a less than pot sized bet, since we achieve a lot of equity denial for a reasonable price. Admittedly this is a little bit more of a tournament mindset, but I am mainly a tournament player, so I cant help it

Obviously those hands would also call a 3 strt bet bet jam.

Sure but then you should not check back the turn. In a standard 3-bet pot UTG vs. BTN with no caller in between GTO Wizard does bet small on this flop with most of its range including TT. But it never check back TT on the turn, so this is a much larger deviation from GTO play, than a large flop bet would be. And do you really need to play GTO in the first place in a live game against someone, who is "pretty loose"? If not then its allowed to have different sizings in a situation, where solvers mostly "range bet". If the opponents are recreational, they are not going to pick up on that.

By betting small, we can induce + widen his range

With essentially the nuts we should not be looking to induce but strictly to bet for value. And especially so if we are going to fold, when we actually get the bluff, we were trying to induce. Admittedly this was one of the worst runouts for your hand, so its not always going to end like this. But still the idea of betting small with the nuts "to induce" is flawed in my opinion.

My mistake as played imo was not building him a range on river for value bets & bluffs

As I already said, checking back the turn was the main mistake, when you take this sizing on the flop. Its not even possible to check, what the solver would do with TT on the river, because it never check back turn with that hand.

 

[Station_Master]

On a non diamond turn we get calls from top pair. And on any turn we dont mind it, if Villain fold out their draws for a less than pot sized bet, since we achieve a lot of equity denial for a reasonable price. Admittedly this is a little bit more of a tournament mindset, but I am mainly a tournament player, so I cant help it

Sure but then you should not check back the turn. In a standard 3-bet pot UTG vs. BTN with no caller in between GTO Wizard does bet small on this flop with most of its range including TT. But it never check back TT on the turn, so this is a much larger deviation from GTO play, than a large flop bet would be. And do you really need to play GTO in the first place in a live game against someone, who is "pretty loose"? If not then its allowed to have different sizings in a situation, where solvers mostly "range bet". If the opponents are recreational, they are not going to pick up on that.

With essentially the nuts we should not be looking to induce but strictly to bet for value. And especially so if we are going to fold, when we actually get the bluff, we were trying to induce. Admittedly this was one of the worst runouts for your hand, so its not always going to end like this. But still the idea of betting small with the nuts "to induce" is flawed in my opinion.

As I already said, checking back the turn was the main mistake, when you take this sizing on the flop. Its not even possible to check, what the solver would do with TT on the river, because it never check back turn with that hand.

I am not surprised by the small cbet as that is a GTO heuristic I have seen on some wet boards, despite everyone saying you should size up.

Out of interest what size does GTO wizard take on the turn, presumably mixing about 4 or 5 sizes, but would it go 1/3rd or so with AK+ which is probably what I would do in practice and then check river (unless boat up)

 

[gustav197poker]

Yes, well played. But if you show your cards you unnecessarily expose yourself to the possibility of going into tilt when your opponent shows you a naked bluff. It's live poker, so I personally would have bet bigger OTF. 2x pot or more, if I want to clear out trash from range V.

 

[fundiver199]

Out of interest what size does GTO wizard take on the turn, presumably mixing about 4 or 5 sizes, but would it go 1/3rd or so with AK+ which is probably what I would do in practice and then check river (unless boat up)

Yes its mostly small bets on the turn as well. Of course the simulation is not 100% accurate, since I made several changes, including having Hero play with the original raiser rather than a dubble flatter in between.

 

[Aballinamion]

Hi! Logged in and posting after an incredibly long while. Started playing some live poker recently at a local casino & thinking of putting some volume.
I havent studied in ages but my overall game should be solid.

The hand is played on stakes close to 1.5/3 usd
Game Dynamics - Players are loose generally, a lot of chinese players who love to gamble puts on straddles, it gets insane. In generally very loose willing to make big bluffs, I have had a bit of trouble adjusting to the game. This is my 3rd session in this game.

Hand -
We are playing 7 handed late into session. I was down 2 Buyins and wasnt playing well. Was playing passive & bleeding chips. Villain to my right was the next best player imo who is fairly aggro willing to steal & resteal but overall played a solid game

UTG opens to 4BBs & the villain at UTG+1 calls, we are on UTG+2 with TT & we 3b to 20BB, UTG folds Villain calls

Flop - KdTd3s
V checks we cbet to 15 ish BB V xc
Turn - 4d
V checks & I check back - might have been a mistake (we had around 80-100bb left to play)
River - 7d
V lead bet 60BB very quickly, given how fast he bet & becasue generally I wasnt sure how live players bluff in these spots I folded & showed my set. He showed AhJh as a bluff.

After he told me he was putting me in a pair because I checked back turn. So why not just bet or jam turn with my hand. I was trying to call down river on any sizing if it wasnt a diamond since I know he can run big bluffs, irl when the diamond river hit my head didnt work & I didnt think of him running a bluff.

Also Im trying to construct a range of our bets and checks on turn & river on this spot & whether like he said to just jam turn which would make him fold most hands. Also his bluffs and v bets on river as played. Would he bet any other low diamond cards like 9d or lower? Or just Ad & maybe Qd,Jd
Any help is appreciated

Hard to assume or predict what villain could bet on this specific scenario. Overall the hand was well played, probably I would've folded on the river as well, but given that we have lesser chips on later street, calling on the turn wouldn't have been a bad choice.

 

[_420_420_]

#1 tip... Don't show! Although he did end up showing you the bluff which is good information, in the long run you are better of not showing if you don't have to . You are giving up a lot of information there, and I guess it might induce more bluffs in the future you have to be willing to call it down.
As for this hand specifically, don't check back the turn I think that is the biggest mistake, you are giving hi the betting lead to bluff you on the river.

 

[kdmeteor]

Preflop: If the UTG opens wide this is fine. If they don't, TT is actually not fantastic against an UTG range and a 4bet is terrible, so I would call.
Flop: Why would you only bet 15BB? The main hands that will call you here are Kings, which will pay much more than this. bet larger. At least twice as much.
Turn: Either the Stack to Pot ratio is large, in which case you wanna bet & maybe fold to a raise, or it's small, in which case you just get your money in either way. Never check here.
River: This is where it just depends on the player. In my casino against almost everyone I fold there without even giving it much thought because people don't bluff nearly enough. Your place seems a lot more fun than this, but idk.
Post-River: I would also show the hand; information should be much more valuable to you than to them.

Overall I think your biggest problem is that you're trying to balance/play GTO. Is your opponent going to pick up on bet sizing tells on the Flop if you stop doing that? Obviously not, so why balance?