$25 NL HE Full Ring: Taking an unconventional Line in a 3way pot

[kdmeteor]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

This is an online hand where I got creative, and I'm curious to hear whether this line made sense as played.

Both opponents in this hand were very splashy. UTG+1 had 39/21 VPIP/PFR and BB had 60/40 although only based on 5 hands. For this reason on the Flop, I decided not to bet because I don't think either opponent's range is condensed to high cards, which means they'll have hit this flop a lot, and I just thought that I mostly get called by better hands.

Then when everyone checked back the Turn, I figured they are weak at this point, so I went for an overbet. I thought this looks like a slowplayed hand and hence will get even loose players to fold junky pairs, which in fact beat me. If I get called by something good, it's not a disaster since I have the nut flush draw now, and if I get raised here, it's almost certainly a strong hand, so I can fold.

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 ($0.10 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

8b2cef84 (UTG): $61.36 (245 bb)
74830869 (UTG+1): $74.81 (299 bb)
162d5e72 (MP): $59.06 (236 bb)
Hero (MP+1): $53.98 (216 bb)
a9f3e4ec (LP): $50.00 (200 bb)
b6036f03 (CO): $50.20 (201 bb)
76d2888 (BU): $30.49 (122 bb)
2d4ac8f6 (SB): $51.04 (204 bb)
17088c68 (BB): $44.75 (179 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($1.25) Hero (Hero) is MP+1 with J♥ A♥
1 fold, 74830869 (UTG+1) raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero (MP+1) 3-bets to $1.63, 4 players fold, 17088c68 (BB) calls $1.38, 74830869 (UTG+1) calls $1.13

Flop: ($5.89) 9♦ 8♥ 3♣ (3 players)
17088c68 (BB) checks, 74830869 (UTG+1) checks, Hero (MP+1) checks

Turn: ($5.89) 2♥ (3 players)
17088c68 (BB) checks, 74830869 (UTG+1) checks, Hero (MP+1) bets $6.50, 2 players fold

Total pot: $5.89 (Rake: $0.35)
Hero (MP+1) wins $5.54

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
A min-raise in this game with a huge ante looks very weak, so totally on board with 3-betting. However because of all the dead money, I would go larger than 3X. I dont think, its over the top to go 5X, since its still only a 10BB 3-bet, and stacks are more than 200BB deep.

Flop
I would also check back this flop, since its difficult to make many better hands fold or worse hands call. You also have two overcards and some backdoor draws, so this is a great spot to essentially take a 4-card flop especially multiway.

Turn
You picked up the flushdraw, and I think, its fine to bet when checked to, since at this point it really looks like, they are both pretty weak. However I dont quite understand the overbet. The issue here is, that if they can hand read, you are pretty much only representing exactly, what you have, since any strong hand would have bet the flop, and its highly unlikely, you 3-bet preflop with a 2 in your hand.

 

[kdmeteor]

Preflop
A min-raise in this game with a huge ante looks very weak, so totally on board with 3-betting. However because of all the dead money, I would go larger than 3X. I dont think, its over the top to go 5X, since its still only a 10BB 3-bet, and stacks are more than 200BB deep.

I think you've wanted me to increase my sizing in almost every online hand I've posted so far 😔. I don't agree though. In GTO world, I think a larger sizing would probably be better, but in practice, I think it would mostly make Villain fold out the bottom parts of their range, which isn't good. I also think they'd 4bet with pretty much the same range vs. a 3x and 5x (a range that probably contains no bluffs), and I want to lose less if I run into a premium hand. So putting this both together, I feel like going 5x would "force" villain to play better, which I don't want.

This is a similar reason for why I don't go higher than 5x/4x (4x in early position and 5x otherwise) when I open first in. I think given the Ante, a GTO open is at least 6x, but practically I don't think it accomplishes anything.

I'm open to be convinced on the sizing but I think "there's more money in the pot, therefore fundamentals suggest raising larger" isn't a good enough argument. The field doesn't play GTO.

The issue here is, that if they can hand read, you are pretty much only representing exactly, what you have, since any strong hand would have bet the flop, and its highly unlikely, you 3-bet preflop with a 2 in your hand.

I agree, but is this relevant? I think the chances that these opponents can hand-read are very low.

Suppose BB has something like . I think this is a hand they'd call a 50% bet with but fold to an overbet. Ditto lots of other combination that have a junky pair, like . Also if they have a strong but not nut hand like , I think there's a high chance they call this bet rather than raising, which would be excellent for me. And if they do raise, I'm expecting a set every time, in which case it's again good for me since I probably lose less this way.

Idk, interested to hear other people's thoughts on this; my sense is that this will work well against the typical splashy online player. It's not something I'd consider against a strong player.

 

[fundiver199]

In GTO world, I think a larger sizing would probably be better, but in practice, I think it would mostly make Villain fold out the bottom parts of their range, which isn't good.

The main purpose of a 3-bet is to make people fold, so yes its good, if they fold at least part of their range. If you go to small with your 3-bets, you only massage the pot larger, which mean, you cant work any bluffs into your 3-betting range at all. And against anyone but the biggest calling stations you should also be 3-betting some bluffs like maybe A5s or KJs. And this is why, the 3-bet need to be larger, since you dont want to use one sizing with your strongest holdings and another with your bluffs.

 

[kdmeteor]

The main purpose of a 3-bet is to make people fold, so yes its good, if they fold at least part of their range.

In general yes, but not if you have AJs. The bottom part of villain's range is full of weaker Aces and weaker Jacks, i.e., hands that AJs dominates. I want to play against those. If I'm holding A5s or 54s instead, then I see the argument for betting larger, since now (a) I want all the weaker Aces to fold, and also (b) if my opponent 4bets, I'm more likely to continue (with 54s anyway) since I don't hate playing 54s against AK or even an overpair in position.

since you dont want to use one sizing with your strongest holdings and another with your bluffs.

I absolutely want to use different sizings with different hands! Remember that GGPoker doesn't allow people to use tracking software while playing.

Also note with the entire hand that this isn't just against two random online players; it's against two online players who've both been very splashy so far. If I were playing against a 16/14 player instead, then maybe balancing would be more of a concern.

 

[fundiver199]

The bottom part of villain's range is full of weaker Aces and weaker Jacks, i.e., hands that AJs dominates. I want to play against those.

Ok but why 3-bet then? It is also allowed to just call. And arguably AJs is kind of an in between hand, that might play better as a call in many situations.

I absolutely want to use different sizings with different hands! Remember that GGPoker doesn't allow people to use tracking software while playing.

Sure but dont you think, people will pick up on that? After all you are playing with the same people during an entire session.

Also note with the entire hand that this isn't just against two random online players; it's against two online players who've both been very splashy so far. If I were playing against a 16/14 player instead, then maybe balancing would be more of a concern.

That is a fair point, although when you 3-bet, you were only playing against 1 opponent and not 2. It only became a 3-way pot, when someone cold called your 3-bet behind. And maybe a justification for a small 3-bet can be to give players behind a worse price to enter the pot, especially since it was only a min-raise. Its kind of a weird spot because of the large ante, which makes a min-raise almost the same as a limp.

 

[kdmeteor]

Sure but dont you think, people will pick up on that? After all you are playing with the same people during an entire session.

I think this guy won't. Like, he just opened to 2x in a game with a .5x Ante; there's no way he's going to pick up on my 3bet sizing. It's just not going to happen.

It's possible that another player will pick up on it, but if I think they're good, I'm not going to vary my bet sizing against them, so it doesn't really matter.

I guess eventually there will be a case where a strong player picks up on a bet sizing tell, I don't realize that they're strong so I try it against them, and I get punished for that. But I expect that to very rare. Good players multi-table, which makes it very hard to pay attention to something like that.

Ok but why 3-bet then? It is also allowed to just call. And arguably AJs is kind of an in between hand, that might play better as a call in many situations.

So the pro that I've listened to most in the last two months is Alexander Fitzgerald, and one of the points he makes all the time is that if you look in data bases, you almost always find that 3betting strong hands is more profitable than flatting them. (This is specific to mid to low stakes.) So that's the reason. I used to flat way more; nowadays my policy is "flat only when one of the following is true: you're at the BN, you're at the SB, you're at the BB, you have a pair, you have a suited Ace". (And even then I don't have to flat, I'm just "allowed" to.) So in most situations where someone raised before me, I'm playing 3bet or fold. I don't have enough hands online yet to get good data, but it feels like it works better.

This is a suited Ace so I don't hate flatting, but I thought I'm ahead of his range, so why not make the pot bigger.

although when you 3-bet, you were only playing against 1 opponent and not 2. It only became a 3-way pot, when someone cold called your 3-bet behind. And maybe a justification for a small [I assume you mean "large" here] 3-bet can be to give players behind a worse price to enter the pot, especially since it was only a min-raise. Its kind of a weird spot because of the large ante, which makes a min-raise almost the same as a limp.

That's a good point, but I'm not sure if playing a 3way pot is a bad thing? Whenever I have a suited Ace, the dream scenario is to be against a weaker flush, and more players makes that more likely. I think keeping it a 2way pot would be a stronger argument for AJo (although I think I fold AJo there -- maybe AQo).

 

[kdmeteor]

Right now I have "suited aces want to flat" and "big aces want to 3bet" as two rules of thumb in my head and this hand is both, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Station_Master]

Playing a flat pre would be terrible, you would just get squeezed out alot if there are competent players behind. AJs is strong enough to 3bet, and yes it should be larger when there are antes, a little under a pot size raise works well IP (I.e. 3x if no antes or about 4.5x or 5x here)

 

[fundiver199]

So the pro that I've listened to most in the last two months is Alexander Fitzgerald, and one of the points he makes all the time is that if you look in data bases, you almost always find that 3betting strong hands is more profitable than flatting them.

Yes but presumably those databases are made up of hands played in standard cash games with no ante, which is totally different from the game, you are playing on GG Poker. Whenever there is an ante, even a smaller one, solvers tend to develop a much wider calling range. Other poker sites also dont rake pots, that ends preflop, which gives a further incentive to 3-bet. Finally AJs is not really a strong hand against an EP open. Its more like an in between hand.

But with all that being said, I do still think, this is a fine 3-bet. I just think, its to small given the huge ante and the deep stacks. And given the stats of this opponent, I dont even think, its true, that he will fold all dominated hands to a larger sizing. He would still be getting a good price with the ante and have plenty of stack left to play postflop. So I dont think, he is going anywhere with hands like ATs, KJs etc, just because he has to stick in another 8BB preflop instead of 4BB.

 

[kdmeteor]

You're right that the Ante changes the structure a lot and that the empirical result is almost certainly not from that structure; however--

So I dont think, he is going anywhere with hands like ATs, KJs etc, just because he has to stick in another 8BB preflop instead of 4BB.

-- I genuinely do. I haven't seen a lot of evidence that most players adjust to the Ante. ImE most players pretend the Ante isn't there, and also imE 3bet sizing does make a difference on how often people call. When I'm in the blinds, I always go 100% pot with hands like 54s and 75% pot with AK or better.

This is also the reason why I'm willing to trust that the result does carry over, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Aballinamion]

This is an online hand where I got creative, and I'm curious to hear whether this line made sense as played.

Both opponents in this hand were very splashy. UTG+1 had 39/21 VPIP/PFR and BB had 60/40 although only based on 5 hands. For this reason on the Flop, I decided not to bet because I don't think either opponent's range is condensed to high cards, which means they'll have hit this flop a lot, and I just thought that I mostly get called by better hands.

Then when everyone checked back the Turn, I figured they are weak at this point, so I went for an overbet. I thought this looks like a slowplayed hand and hence will get even loose players to fold junky pairs, which in fact beat me. If I get called by something good, it's not a disaster since I have the nut flush draw now, and if I get raised here, it's almost certainly a strong hand, so I can fold.

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 ($0.10 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

8b2cef84 (UTG): $61.36 (245 bb)
74830869 (UTG+1): $74.81 (299 bb)
162d5e72 (MP): $59.06 (236 bb)
Hero (MP+1): $53.98 (216 bb)
a9f3e4ec (LP): $50.00 (200 bb)
b6036f03 (CO): $50.20 (201 bb)
76d2888 (BU): $30.49 (122 bb)
2d4ac8f6 (SB): $51.04 (204 bb)
17088c68 (BB): $44.75 (179 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($1.25) Hero (Hero) is MP+1 with J♥ A♥
1 fold, 74830869 (UTG+1) raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero (MP+1) 3-bets to $1.63, 4 players fold, 17088c68 (BB) calls $1.38, 74830869 (UTG+1) calls $1.13

Flop: ($5.89) 9♦ 8♥ 3♣ (3 players)
17088c68 (BB) checks, 74830869 (UTG+1) checks, Hero (MP+1) checks

Turn: ($5.89) 2♥ (3 players)
17088c68 (BB) checks, 74830869 (UTG+1) checks, Hero (MP+1) bets $6.50, 2 players fold

Total pot: $5.89 (Rake: $0.35)
Hero (MP+1) wins $5.54

Considering both villain splashy stats, this is an ideal spot for a 3-bet preflop. The flop is medium and we could go for betting or checking. In textures like this flop I like to bet as soon as possible because I have no idea if my equity is going to get better on the turn.
But I agree with your line of thought that decided to go for checking.
On the turn things get easy since both checked and now our equity improved. Nice hand, well played.

 

[AdamasDate]

Preflop

Remember stacks are deeper so u can go abit larger u kinda want a iso pot easier to play but ok as is

Flop

We miss but have backdoors it checks though

Turn

I don't understand what the over bet is for you don't have a range advantage and the board don't favour you that much yes your drawing to the nuts but do u really want use that size? 8 and 9 jam u are in a grim spot the board is kinda dry not much draws and everyone is taking a passive line. If u must bet half pot is a fine size a argument could be had for also check back