$25 NL HE Full Ring: Middle pair in 3way 3bet pot

[kdmeteor]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

I chose this hand because it's so far outside the common spots that are usually taught. In most cases I feel like I at least somewhat know what I'm doing. But here -- when is it good or not good to lead in a 3way 3bet pot with a mediocre pair and a flush draw? And if you bet, how much should you bet?

I think I thought something about cashing out my equity and/or semi-bluffing. But mostly it was ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Preflop, I think the call is correct because of set mining odds. I started flatting much less recently but middle pairs in late-ish position are still profitable I think.

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 ($0.10 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

606530b9 (UTG): $58.83 (235 bb)
ad856d3c (UTG+1): $106.99 (428 bb)
24f2645f (MP): $11.31 (45 bb)
9c6c30c2 (MP+1): $46.00 (184 bb)
Hero (LP): $54.39 (218 bb)
b524b2e (CO): $53.34 (213 bb)
7eb6215a (BU): $25.00 (100 bb)
fd857174 (SB): $16.72 (67 bb)
4413dde9 (BB): $30.23 (121 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($1.25) Hero (Hero) is LP with 7♣ 7♠
3 players fold, 9c6c30c2 (MP+1) raises to $0.70, Hero (LP) calls $0.70, b524b2e (CO) 3-bets to $3.30, 3 players fold, 9c6c30c2 (MP+1) calls $2.60, Hero (LP) calls $2.60

Flop: ($11.15) 6♦ 6♣ T♣ (3 players)
9c6c30c2 (MP+1) checks, Hero (LP) checks, b524b2e (CO) checks

Turn: ($11.15) 3♣ (3 players)
9c6c30c2 (MP+1) checks, Hero (LP) bets $5.58, 2 players fold

Total pot: $11.15 (Rake: $0.85)
Hero (LP) wins $10.30

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I think, its a bit marginal to call the 3-bet, but its not a big deal either way.

Flop
Dont see much reason to donk bet with an in between hand like this. Even though its a pretty good flop, the plan is probably still to check-fold, given that its a 3-way pot, and CO has all the bigger pocket pairs in their range.

Turn
If someone had a better hand, they would most likely have bet it now. And combined they can have as much as 12 outs from overcards + flush outs. So I think, its fine to bet here, and its not a bluff. Its a bet for value / protection with protection probably being the more important element.

 

[kdmeteor]

Even it the way I played this hand makes sense, I still don't feel like I know what I'm doing here or how I'd generalize it. Do you have a general framework for spots like this? Is it just like going through the value/bluff/protection categories and seeing if either of those three gives us a reason to bet? If so, should we lead on every Turn that's 8 or lower for protection? Does it matter whether it's a club? (I could come up with reasons why it makes more or less sense to lead on a third club vs. e.g. a spade).

 

[gustav197poker]

Interesting line, on the turn you could have bet a little more polarized but your size is quite reasonable.

 

[Station_Master]

The game structure is so wierd with the huge ante and preflop rake that it's hard to know the best line preflop. In a more normal game I would 3bet of fold HJ v LJ. With this structure it's probably fine to flat and then double flat.

Postflop looks fine, you probably have the best hand on the turn so fine to bet for valu/protection

 

[fundiver199]

The game structure is so wierd with the huge ante and preflop rake that it's hard to know the best line preflop.

Actually that is the main thing, which might make this game worth playing. Online 6-max 100BB cash games with no ante are so solved and well known, that they are basically dead these days. Whereas nobody will have spend 10 years learning the perfect strategy for this game, and that give a possible edge to talented players, who might be better at figuring it out than others. So if I was to ever go back to cash games and decide to play on GG Poker, I might well give this game a go

 

[Station_Master]

Actually that is the main thing, which might make this game worth playing. Online 6-max 100BB cash games with no ante are so solved and well known, that they are basically dead these days. Whereas nobody will have spend 10 years learning the perfect strategy for this game, and that give a possible edge to talented players, who might be better at figuring it out than others. So if I was to ever go back to cash games and decide to play on GG Poker, I might well give this game a go

Yeah I was wondering that too whether the wierd structure can give you a big enough edge to make it profitable, after all the rake will be a killer. I could see limping being a viable strategy here, or min raising, in both cases with a wide range - alot of dead money to fight for.

Just to add, I think 100bb cash is far from solved, in the sense of players playing a solved strategy. Games are still soft.

 

[kdmeteor]

Idk if it has anything to do with solvers, but imo on GGPoker, 9max is much softer and hence much more profitable than 6max (which has no ante) at these stakes. On 9max you see tons of limping and other random nonsense; on 6max you see most people play reasonable ranges and -- gasp -- almost no limping! Every now and then there's someone crazy, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

I think the rake is a little overblown; there's lots of random promotional stuff that gives you money back. E.g. I just won 17,36$ from the auto-invite-every-hand-auto-allin tournamnet (this is a daily thing that you get invited for if you win a big pot and/or lose a big pot where you got unlucky); that makes up for a bunch of rakeback.

If after all benefits and rakeback, we still have 3% effective rake, then the 10ct ante amounts to 0.3ct extra rake per hand. Which is not nothing, but it's also not devastating.

 

[Station_Master]

Idk if it has anything to do with solvers, but imo on GGPoker, 9max is much softer and hence much more profitable than 6max (which has no ante) at these stakes. On 9max you see tons of limping and other random nonsense; on 6max you see most people play reasonable ranges and -- gasp -- almost no limping! Every now and then there's someone crazy, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

I think the rake is a little overblown; there's lots of random promotional stuff that gives you money back. E.g. I just won 17,36$ from the auto-invite-every-hand-auto-allin tournamnet (this is a daily thing that you get invited for if you win a big pot and/or lose a big pot where you got unlucky); that makes up for a bunch of rakeback.

If after all benefits and rakeback, we still have 3% effective rake, then the 10ct ante amounts to 0.3ct extra rake per hand. Which is not nothing, but it's also not devastating.

Is limping really that bad with this structure though? There are 5bb in the middle, if you invest 1bb you need to realise 17% equity. With so much dead money I think you need to play much wider, which would suggest a small open size (maybe even limp). The fact you need to play wider in an ante game is what leads to more rake.

 

[fundiver199]

The fact you need to play wider in an ante game is what leads to more rake.

You will pay more rake per hand, but the pots will also be larger on average, and you will be involved in more hands, which mean more chances to find edge. So its no different from the fact, that you pay more rake per hand, if you play 50NL or 100NL rather than 25NL.

 

[kdmeteor]

Is limping really that bad with this structure though? There are 5bb in the middle, if you invest 1bb you need to realise 17% equity. With so much dead money I think you need to play much wider, which would suggest a small open size (maybe even limp). The fact you need to play wider in an ante game is what leads to more rake.

There is a lot of limping, but it's rare to see a limped pot. Usually a few people limp and then someone raises. So you limp from LJ, HJ limps, CO folds, BN makes it 9BB, and now you're in a terrible spot.

 

[Station_Master]

There is a lot of limping, but it's rare to see a limped pot. Usually a few people limp and then someone raises. So you limp from LJ, HJ limps, CO folds, BN makes it 9BB, and now you're in a terrible spot.

Well only if you don't protect your limping range!

I suspect in practice no one is playing a good limping strategy!

 

[kdmeteor]

It's true that I don't see a lot of limp/raising, but even if you protect your limping range by including AQ+, AJs+ and JJ+ or something, I still doubt that this outperforms a never-limp-in-first strategy. Though idk, would be interesting to see what a solver spits out when you feed in this 0.5BB Ante format

 

[Aballinamion]

I chose this hand because it's so far outside the common spots that are usually taught. In most cases I feel like I at least somewhat know what I'm doing. But here -- when is it good or not good to lead in a 3way 3bet pot with a mediocre pair and a flush draw? And if you bet, how much should you bet?

I think I thought something about cashing out my equity and/or semi-bluffing. But mostly it was ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Preflop, I think the call is correct because of set mining odds. I started flatting much less recently but middle pairs in late-ish position are still profitable I think.

GGPoker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 ($0.10 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

606530b9 (UTG): $58.83 (235 bb)
ad856d3c (UTG+1): $106.99 (428 bb)
24f2645f (MP): $11.31 (45 bb)
9c6c30c2 (MP+1): $46.00 (184 bb)
Hero (LP): $54.39 (218 bb)
b524b2e (CO): $53.34 (213 bb)
7eb6215a (BU): $25.00 (100 bb)
fd857174 (SB): $16.72 (67 bb)
4413dde9 (BB): $30.23 (121 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($1.25) Hero (Hero) is LP with 7♣ 7♠
3 players fold, 9c6c30c2 (MP+1) raises to $0.70, Hero (LP) calls $0.70, b524b2e (CO) 3-bets to $3.30, 3 players fold, 9c6c30c2 (MP+1) calls $2.60, Hero (LP) calls $2.60

Flop: ($11.15) 6♦ 6♣ T♣ (3 players)
9c6c30c2 (MP+1) checks, Hero (LP) checks, b524b2e (CO) checks

Turn: ($11.15) 3♣ (3 players)
9c6c30c2 (MP+1) checks, Hero (LP) bets $5.58, 2 players fold

Total pot: $11.15 (Rake: $0.85)
Hero (LP) wins $10.30

Preflop we are basically calling to try to set mine or get a good price out of bets. This hand won't play good against UTG and MP's 3-bet range.
On the flop it was good that they all have checked and on the turn we could've gone for checking as well. Betting is not terrible but we are expecting to hit a hard boat on the river or a flush that most of times we will be behind.