$25 NL HE Full Ring: Calling down with middle pair

[Station_Master]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 9 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $14.51 (58 bb)
UTG+1: $28.92 (116 bb)
MP: $25.00 (100 bb)
MP+1: $38.38 (154 bb)
LP: $26.02 (104 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.22 (101 bb)
BU: $17.56 (70 bb)
SB: $25.00 (100 bb)
BB: $25.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.60) Hero is CO with A♣ 8♣
UTG raises to $0.85, 4 players fold, Hero calls $0.85, 3 players fold

This is villain's first hand at the table and I have never played with him before. He posts from UTG and then raises to pot. I am immediately suspicious of a post then raise which I read as weaker than just a regular raise. The short stack (as well as posting) is another fish tell, so I decide to call with a hand I would usually fold to an open raise.

Flop: ($2.05) J♠ 5♥ 8♥ (2 players)
UTG bets $1.96, Hero calls $1.96

I flop middle pair on a wet board. Villain bets pot and I can't see any options other than call.

Turn: ($5.97) 5♦ (2 players)
UTG bets $5.70, Hero?

A brick turn and I face another pot barrel. I had hoped he might slow down. Obviously this is a very strong line and I would typically fold middle pair just defending with top pair+ and good draws. However, my read is that villain is a fish. How much weight should I put on this when it is literally the first hand I've played with villain? I feel like call, fold and jam (given there isn't much behind) are all viable options - what would you do?

 

[puzzlefish]

I hate these types of hands and I mostly find myself looking at least at some wonky set at showdown. I think when you called with A8s you are looking for boards that lead to straights and flushes. Here you have neither and can probably use your stack better elsewhere.

 

[gustav197poker]

I can understand the preflop call when the aggressor is half stacked but I would still prefer to do it from BTN which is the best position.
I don't like the flop for our range, I didn't like V's opening earlier either. I feel like he's playing a very strong hand and isn't afraid to commit to the pot.
On the turn I confirm the above. V doesn't want to give you a chance to bluff and he's blocking the river. I would quickly fold this hand, without further information.
Greetings.

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 9 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $14.51 (58 bb)
UTG+1: $28.92 (116 bb)
MP: $25.00 (100 bb)
MP+1: $38.38 (154 bb)
LP: $26.02 (104 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.22 (101 bb)
BU: $17.56 (70 bb)
SB: $25.00 (100 bb)
BB: $25.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.60) Hero is CO with A♣ 8♣
UTG raises to $0.85, 4 players fold, Hero calls $0.85, 3 players fold

This is villain's first hand at the table and I have never played with him before. He posts from UTG and then raises to pot. I am immediately suspicious of a post then raise which I read as weaker than just a regular raise. The short stack (as well as posting) is another fish tell, so I decide to call with a hand I would usually fold to an open raise.

Flop: ($2.05) J♠ 5♥ 8♥ (2 players)
UTG bets $1.96, Hero calls $1.96

I flop middle pair on a wet board. Villain bets pot and I can't see any options other than call.

Turn: ($5.97) 5♦ (2 players)
UTG bets $5.70, Hero?

A brick turn and I face another pot barrel. I had hoped he might slow down. Obviously this is a very strong line and I would typically fold middle pair just defending with top pair+ and good draws. However, my read is that villain is a fish. How much weight should I put on this when it is literally the first hand I've played with villain? I feel like call, fold and jam (given there isn't much behind) are all viable options - what would you do?

I really don’t like calling in position with any suited ace. Given all these info you provided about villain, it could be an option, but I don’t think that in the long run this move is profitable.
On the flop I would like to make a fishy reading of the board.

J58

We have the 8’s so we remove it of villain’s range. We do not believe that even the king of fishes would be value betting this 5 on the flop, so we remove it too. It lasts the Jack, and villain has plenty of them, except maybe AJ that we are blocking. Yeah, it could be holding 55, but just a few combos.
On the other side we know how much fishes like to play any draws and pursuit flushes, but villain bets too much. I think that we should’ve left the hand on the flop and try to play versus this type having better hands.
Okay, this villain is a fish, but is it a loose passive? A loose aggressive? Tight passive? Etc.
If villain is loose passive or tight passive we should be folding preflop, for these guys like to limp using weak range and raising strong range.
Passive players are most often calling, and when they bet, this is a red flag warning us we should fold our losing hands. By the sizings it’s using we already have some idea about its patterns and behavior. A decent player would’ve bet 100% pot here?
We should be only calling flop and turn (and before of it preflop) if villain is a loose aggressive/tilted out of control nonsense fish.
If we are going to level against it, I think we should jam right off the bat OTT because there aren’t enough chips behind to fight for.

 

[Station_Master]

I really don’t like calling in position with any suited ace. Given all these info you provided about villain, it could be an option, but I don’t think that in the long run this move is profitable.
On the flop I would like to make a fishy reading of the board.

J58

We have the 8’s so we remove it of villain’s range. We do not believe that even the king of fishes would be value betting this 5 on the flop, so we remove it too. It lasts the Jack, and villain has plenty of them, except maybe AJ that we are blocking. Yeah, it could be holding 55, but just a few combos.
On the other side we know how much fishes like to play any draws and pursuit flushes, but villain bets too much. I think that we should’ve left the hand on the flop and try to play versus this type having better hands.
Okay, this villain is a fish, but is it a loose passive? A loose aggressive? Tight passive? Etc.
If villain is loose passive or tight passive we should be folding preflop, for these guys like to limp using weak range and raising strong range.
Passive players are most often calling, and when they bet, this is a red flag warning us we should fold our losing hands. By the sizings it’s using we already have some idea about its patterns and behavior. A decent player would’ve bet 100% pot here?
We should be only calling flop and turn (and before of it preflop) if villain is a loose aggressive/tilted out of control nonsense fish.
If we are going to level against it, I think we should jam right off the bat OTT because there aren’t enough chips behind to fight for.

It's the first hand against villain which is kind of the problem, his actions so far indicate he is a fish, but it's not clear whether he is a passive fish, agrofish or what. That's the dilemma really - call down hoping he is an agrofish bluffing or assume he has a strong hand hence the big bets?

 

[Aballinamion]

It's the first hand against villain which is kind of the problem, his actions so far indicate he is a fish, but it's not clear whether he is a passive fish, agrofish or what. That's the dilemma really - call down hoping he is an agrofish bluffing or assume he has a strong hand hence the big bets?

I know exactly what you mean and how you felt: our intuition dictates this player is meh, nothing, and coming from it, big sizings could mean that either it believes it has a strong hand or it is betting strong because it completely missed.
When I’m facing broken stacked players I like to put all the chips in the middle, if I lose, at least it wasn’t a 200 BB pot.
For your description and the little I know about your gameplay, it seems you went through with this opponent.
Don’t worry you are a good player and a decent person, in spite of the outcome. I don’t like to give too much respect to broken stacks and limpers só let the chips fall as they may!

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
If this had been a straight up open to 85c with blinds of 25/10c, then I would most likely just fold. But when he post and then raise, it looks a lot more like, he is trying to protect his prior investment, and posting from UTG is of course extremely fishy. He also bought in for an odd amount, which usually mean, its his remaining balance in the poker account. So this is almost certainly someone, who is looking for a fast "quit or dubble", and possibly on tilt after losing most of his money in his normal game.

Flop
Given everything, we know about this player, I think, you have a pretty easy call with second pair.

Turn
If you call again, pot will be $17,37, and he will only have 7$ left. So its pretty much decision time. Either you let him have this one, or you get it in assuming, that there are enough draws and random bluffs in his range. Normally I would not stack off this deep with just second pair, but against this particular kind of opponent, it can be ok. You just need to live with it and not tilt, if he flip over something, which beat you.

 

[fundiver199]

It's the first hand against villain which is kind of the problem, his actions so far indicate he is a fish, but it's not clear whether he is a passive fish, agrofish or what. That's the dilemma really - call down hoping he is an agrofish bluffing or assume he has a strong hand hence the big bets?

His sizing definitely points towards agrofish. Even the preflop sizing, since there is no need to go larger, when he is the poster himself. And then he follow up with essentially full pot on both flop and turn, which is also very agrofishy, especially since he leave himself less than half pot back for the river. So everything, he did in this hand, points towards agrofish, and as I said already, those 14,51$ is almost certainly his last remaining funds on PokerStars.

But of course even someone, who is on tilt, and bought in to a 25NL cash game with the rest of their poker money, can still wake up with hands like KK or AJ, which have you crushed on this board. So the safer option is to fold and try to get a more accurate read on the guy. But the problem with that is, he wont rebuy, if someone else bust his, since he have no more money. So its a bit of a race to get his money, before someone else does

 

[Station_Master]

His sizing definitely points towards agrofish. Even the preflop sizing, since there is no need to go larger, when he is the poster himself. And then he follow up with essentially full pot on both flop and turn, which is also very agrofishy, especially since he leave himself less than half pot back for the river. So everything, he did in this hand, points towards agrofish, and as I said already, those 14,51$ is almost certainly his last remaining funds on PokerStars.

But of course even someone, who is on tilt, and bought in to a 25NL cash game with the rest of their poker money, can still wake up with hands like KK or AJ, which have you crushed on this board. So the safer option is to fold and try to get a more accurate read on the guy. But the problem with that is, he wont rebuy, if someone else bust his, since he have no more money. So its a bit of a race to get his money, before someone else does

Agreed.

And this shows the problem of the mantra 'wait for a better spot' as it may never come before they lose all their money!

 

[Station_Master]

Results...

..I folded.
The guy turned about to be a complete agrofish and lost his stack in about 10 hands. Should of gone with my reads.

Even without the benefit of hindsight I think this was a bad fold, as not many hands are strong enough for his line, I should have just shoved turn.

 

[gustav197poker]

Results...

..I folded.
The guy turned about to be a complete agrofish and lost his stack in about 10 hands. Should of gone with my reads.

Even without the benefit of hindsight I think this was a bad fold, as not many hands are strong enough for his line, I should have just shoved turn.

Villain could have done that to you with hands like 99+. JT+. Sometimes he can also have a wild bluff, but I don't think your fold was bad. You needed a little more information. The only thing you knew was that V was in a hurry to play and with a stack of 58bb. IMO prudent decision