€25 NL HE 6-max: Calling 3bet on the River

[Station_Master]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

€

Game #1885625988: Table €25 NL - 0.15/0.25 - No Limit Hold'Em - 21:04:39 2023/05/26
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: Lilonoji (€34.13)
Seat 2: Snizle1 (€18.80)
Seat 3: BerriSweet3 (€26.43)
Seat 4: Heval0 (€21.64)
Seat 6: mouloud (€42.08)
*** Blinds and button ***
Heval0 has the button
mouloud posts small blind €0.15
Lilonoji posts big blind €0.25
*** Hole cards ***
Dealt to mouloud [Villain]
Dealt in Lilonoji
Dealt in Snizle1
Dealt to BerriSweet3 [Hero - As Jd]
Dealt in Heval0
*** Preflop ***
Snizle1 folds
BerriSweet3 raises €0.65 to €0.65
Heval0 folds
mouloud raises €0.90 to €1.05
Lilonoji folds
BerriSweet3 calls €0.40
*** Flop *** [Ac 9h 7d] Pot = 2.35
mouloud checks
BerriSweet3 checks
*** Turn *** [Ac 9h 7d] [3s]
mouloud bets €1.17
BerriSweet3 calls €1.17
*** River *** [Ac 9h 7d] [3s] [Jc] Pot = 4.69
mouloud bets €2.90
BerriSweet3 raises €8.55 to €8.55
mouloud raises €36.96 to €39.86, and is all-in

Hero?

Let me know your thoughts on calling or folding here? plus any other thoughts on my line. (P.S. the forum hand replayer doesn't seems to work with this site's hand histories)

 

[gustav197poker]

Preflop I like your opening from MP. When V min 3-bet from SB I find it very suspicious and I agree with calling in position. 4-bet seems riskier when we don't have enough information about the opponent.
On the flop the V line is strange to me again. It has a flop of relative impact, both from the Axs and from the speculative hands that could have looked for min 3-bet preflop.
I don't hate a donk bet here to extract value from his probable wide range, but checking behind seems fine to me in this sequence.
On the turn V bets 1/2, I can get the idea that his range doesn't contain many Ax combos because we blocked them. Here I am also considering some eliminations in his range: I no longer take into account JJ+ in rank V, that he is playing slowly. And I think of a range made up mostly of speculative hands.
Regarding our range, it looks a bit more linear and therefore with a fold equity margin for the river, when we simply call on this dry board.
The river is polarizing for V. Your raise was correct in my opinion and when V 3-bet jam I'm thinking of his speculative hands, among which is: 99, 77 and in a much smaller proportion: 8T.
This doesn't seem like the balanced type of opponent, so I'd opt to fold this time since now he doesn't need to bet too much for us to stop playing.
Greetings.

 

[Aballinamion]

Game #1885625988: Table €25 NL - 0.15/0.25 - No Limit Hold'Em - 21:04:39 2023/05/26
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: Lilonoji (€34.13)
Seat 2: Snizle1 (€18.80)
Seat 3: BerriSweet3 (€26.43)
Seat 4: Heval0 (€21.64)
Seat 6: mouloud (€42.08)
*** Blinds and button ***
Heval0 has the button
mouloud posts small blind €0.15
Lilonoji posts big blind €0.25
*** Hole cards ***
Dealt to mouloud [Villain]
Dealt in Lilonoji
Dealt in Snizle1
Dealt to BerriSweet3 [Hero - As Jd]
Dealt in Heval0
*** Preflop ***
Snizle1 folds
BerriSweet3 raises €0.65 to €0.65
Heval0 folds
mouloud raises €0.90 to €1.05
Lilonoji folds
BerriSweet3 calls €0.40
*** Flop *** [Ac 9h 7d] Pot = 2.35
mouloud checks
BerriSweet3 checks
*** Turn *** [Ac 9h 7d] [3s]
mouloud bets €1.17
BerriSweet3 calls €1.17
*** River *** [Ac 9h 7d] [3s] [Jc] Pot = 4.69
mouloud bets €2.90
BerriSweet3 raises €8.55 to €8.55
mouloud raises €36.96 to €39.86, and is all-in

Hero?

Let me know your thoughts on calling or folding here? plus any other thoughts on my line. (P.S. the forum hand replayer doesn't seems to work with this site's hand histories)

I found it a bit hard to read your hand.
As far as I understood of this hand, we shouldn’t be giving too much credit for this villain, giving his 3-bet sizing. But not so fast! Let’s dive into this hand and check it scientifically:
A decent player could be checking this flop for isn’t too coordinated, having the plan of check-call or check-raise. A decent player could be betting for value as well to try to extract of dominated hands (considering AQ+ as possible hands on villain’s range).
Now a recreational player could be checking his dominated aces, TT-KK, and so on.
On the turn we are never folding for we have a fair price plus showdown value. On the turn villain could’ve been betting just because we check flop behind (betting for information).
We aren’t raising because we still give some credit to our opponent and although we own removal of aces, it still has AQ+. For all of these reasons we continue calling more than raising OTT.
OTR villain continues to give us a fair price. We could call and realize our equity and raise if we do think worst hands are still paying or even better: raising: those are several, AQ, AK, A9s, A7s, A3s, KK, and a couple of combos of QQ.
However, after we have raised river, do we believe that AK, AQ would shove all-in in top of us, when it could’ve simply called and also realized its equity?
Here comes a reason that we are calling OTR much more than raising: we allow losing hands to fold and winning hands to raise us, or even nonsense to do it, and we are in a real hard spot having a strong value hand such as top two pair: instead of realizing our equity now we are considering to fold. And it’s a pretty tough lay down!
Another question we must ask ourselves before raising this river: which hands do we own that have called 3-bet preflop and would raise river for value? We don’t own AA for sure, just to begin with. Also, we would raise this same river owning what types of bluffs or missed draws?
Having no information of villain and having just a couple of buy-ins I would’ve folded. Having some piece of information about villain and a solid bankroll I’m calling all day long.

Best regards;

 

[eetenor]

Game #1885625988: Table €25 NL - 0.15/0.25 - No Limit Hold'Em - 21:04:39 2023/05/26
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: Lilonoji (€34.13)
Seat 2: Snizle1 (€18.80)
Seat 3: BerriSweet3 (€26.43)
Seat 4: Heval0 (€21.64)
Seat 6: mouloud (€42.08)
*** Blinds and button ***
Heval0 has the button
mouloud posts small blind €0.15
Lilonoji posts big blind €0.25
*** Hole cards ***
Dealt to mouloud [Villain]
Dealt in Lilonoji
Dealt in Snizle1
Dealt to BerriSweet3 [Hero - As Jd]
Dealt in Heval0
*** Preflop ***
Snizle1 folds
BerriSweet3 raises €0.65 to €0.65
Heval0 folds
mouloud raises €0.90 to €1.05
Lilonoji folds
BerriSweet3 calls €0.40
*** Flop *** [Ac 9h 7d] Pot = 2.35
mouloud checks
BerriSweet3 checks
*** Turn *** [Ac 9h 7d] [3s]
mouloud bets €1.17
BerriSweet3 calls €1.17
*** River *** [Ac 9h 7d] [3s] [Jc] Pot = 4.69
mouloud bets €2.90
BerriSweet3 raises €8.55 to €8.55
mouloud raises €36.96 to €39.86, and is all-in

Hero?

Let me know your thoughts on calling or folding here? plus any other thoughts on my line. (P.S. the forum hand replayer doesn't seems to work with this site's hand histories)

You may want to focus on your 4 bet range preflop in this spot-
When we hold AJoff are we expecting BB to have AX hands we dominate?
If they only hold Ax hands that dominate us in their BB 3 bet range do we want to flat AJoff ?

When the BB min 3 bets they expect 0 folds and are out of position what weak range would want to do that?
Was the BB expecting to trigger a 4 bet? Was the table passive or aggressive?

Often players are using the min 3 bet in position to control the post flop action but OOP why would they think that would still work?
If they would not think it would work what does that say about their range?

If you thought they had weakness in their min range why would you flat?

On the flop if we are unsure of our ranges why are we checking back? Why not take control of the pot now?
Do we not have value targets? If we think AJ is a two street hand why allow BB to catch equity by checking now?


As played our river decision becomes very difficult-
We are losing to sets and to 108 that is it-
Why would the BB min 3 bet 33 77 99 JJ?

 

[Station_Master]

You may want to focus on your 4 bet range preflop in this spot-
When we hold AJoff are we expecting BB to have AX hands we dominate?
If they only hold Ax hands that dominate us in their BB 3 bet range do we want to flat AJoff ?

When the BB min 3 bets they expect 0 folds and are out of position what weak range would want to do that?
Was the BB expecting to trigger a 4 bet? Was the table passive or aggressive?

Often players are using the min 3 bet in position to control the post flop action but OOP why would they think that would still work?
If they would not think it would work what does that say about their range?

If you thought they had weakness in their min range why would you flat?

On the flop if we are unsure of our ranges why are we checking back? Why not take control of the pot now?
Do we not have value targets? If we think AJ is a two street hand why allow BB to catch equity by checking now?


As played our river decision becomes very difficult-
We are losing to sets and to 108 that is it-
Why would the BB min 3 bet 33 77 99 JJ?

Thanks for your thoughts.

4betting is an interesting idea. Against a normal size 3bet I would just fold this hand. Its not a great 4 bet bluff, I would rather use A5s or K6s something like that, having a J blocks possible 3bet bluffs and offsuit hands have bad playability post flop.

Versus a min 3bet it's tough. I find it hard to range these, often its nuts only, but with other villains its just way to take the lead. Obviously for this price I dont fold anything.

On the flop I think I am way ahead or way behind, either he has AK or AQ that he is slow playing or something like KK that missed. I thin k checking behind is better and then I can still get 2 streets potentially from a weaker range that may bluff into me.

On the river I think top two is definitely worth a raise being ahead of AK and AQ. No idea v the 3bet though!!! Has he really slow played a set or min raised T8? Tough spot.

 

[Aballinamion]

I saw many times players saying: 4-bet your AJo and cold call with your AJs. Okay, there’s some logic behind it, AJo hasn’t so much fun playability as the suited version.
But we must be humbly attentive to one single detail: we own 12 combos of AJo and only 4 combos of AJs !!!!
Translating it, we are calling 4 times and 4-betting 12, only with AJ... so we are getting pretty much unbalanced doing this.
For what is worth, when it comes to 4-bet ranges we are not counting the hands, but the combos, so we don’t get lost in our ranges.
If we are 4-betting for value only KK+ and AKs we have 16 combos that we 4-bet for value. Ergo, we should’ve precisely 16 combos that we 4-bet for bluff.
Raises on the river are the most dangerous and complicated stuff, for they are polarized: either we own the absolute nuts then we raise river for value or we missed our draws and we are looking for maximum fold equity, and we raise river for bluff: this hand of ours fits in none of these cases.
In this particular case of yours, okay that we are raising to try to get value of AK and AQ, but what about the rest of villain’s range?
If we do call here we realize our equity plus we take a note on the player “villain min-raises BB x SB having XY, and played postflop like this or that”.
Next time we face this villain we are going to be prepared. Now it seems you have folded, not realizing our equity and not taking notes on our much appreciated villain.

 

[Station_Master]

I saw many times players saying: 4-bet your AJo and cold call with your AJs. Okay, there’s some logic behind it, AJo hasn’t so much fun playability as the suited version.
But we must be humbly attentive to one single detail: we own 12 combos of AJo and only 4 combos of AJs !!!!
Translating it, we are calling 4 times and 4-betting 12, only with AJ... so we are getting pretty much unbalanced doing this.
For what is worth, when it comes to 4-bet ranges we are not counting the hands, but the combos, so we don’t get lost in our ranges.
If we are 4-betting for value only KK+ and AKs we have 16 combos that we 4-bet for value. Ergo, we should’ve precisely 16 combos that we 4-bet for bluff.
Raises on the river are the most dangerous and complicated stuff, for they are polarized: either we own the absolute nuts then we raise river for value or we missed our draws and we are looking for maximum fold equity, and we raise river for bluff: this hand of ours fits in none of these cases.
In this particular case of yours, okay that we are raising to try to get value of AK and AQ, but what about the rest of villain’s range?
If we do call here we realize our equity plus we take a note on the player “villain min-raises BB x SB having XY, and played postflop like this or that”.
Next time we face this villain we are going to be prepared. Now it seems you have folded, not realizing our equity and not taking notes on our much appreciated villain.

I think raising the river with top two is fairly standard, if doesnt seem too thin as we are ahead of much of villains range including other 2 pair combos. I'd rather get the extra BB from raising than playing it safe and potentially getting value-owned or bluffed of our hand. I wouldn't put too much value on being able to make a note (and I cant make notes on unibet anyway).

Anyway I actually called, but wont reveal yet. My thinking was there was very little value villain was representing, T8 seemed unlikely to min 3bet and I would expect 99 and 77 to bet flop. There arent many logical bluffs, but sometimes a fish with a hand like KK or AK might feel entitled to win the pot and turn into a bluff. On the other hand river 3bets are rare, especially as bluffs, so maybe this is a nuts only range.

Still not sure about this one!

 

[gustav197poker]

I think raising the river with top two is fairly standard, if doesnt seem too thin as we are ahead of much of villains range including other 2 pair combos. I'd rather get the extra BB from raising than playing it safe and potentially getting value-owned or bluffed of our hand. I wouldn't put too much value on being able to make a note (and I cant make notes on Unibet anyway).

Anyway I actually called, but wont reveal yet. My thinking was there was very little value villain was representing, T8 seemed unlikely to min 3bet and I would expect 99 and 77 to bet flop. There arent many logical bluffs, but sometimes a fish with a hand like KK or AK might feel entitled to win the pot and turn into a bluff. On the other hand river 3bets are rare, especially as bluffs, so maybe this is a nuts only range.

Still not sure about this one!

Maybe I'm a little superficial, but it seems to me that this V is more likely to min 3bet with medium pockets than with monster KK or QQ type hands.

 

[Station_Master]

Maybe I'm a little superficial, but it seems to me that this V is more likely to min 3bet with medium pockets than with monster KK or QQ type hands.

If so he has plenty of 77 and 99 that was trapping and puts this more toward a fold

 

[Station_Master]

Spoiler: Villain had AA and won my stack

 

[gustav197poker]

Spoiler: Villain had AA and won my stack

The V min 3bet with AA. It is an indication that he is a weak player (or had a click error). This V will have very little to no bluff when he play the stack on the river.

 

[Aballinamion]

Spoiler: Villain had AA and won my stack

That’s what I have said about polarizing OTR: you had a hand with plenty of showdown value so, we should be calling much more than raising to realize our equity.
Now you have a note (or a memory note) on this player, that it uses to whiff min-3-bet and kinda slowplay monster hands.
Nice hand, you played the hand fine but IMO it would’ve been even more fine (optimal) if you had called river instead of raising.