€200 NL HE Full Ring: AQ top 2

[ElmerS]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$1/$2

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

€

Hero Abc Qs we have 1600 and cover the hole table 10-max

The first 2 players folds to the MP Who limps.
We raised to 12 and get a called from the Cut off Btn, SB and the original limper.

Flop Ad 9d 3c (pot 62)
Check around

Turn Qc (pot 62)
Check to me, Hero bet 20. Cutoff raises to 70 and SB jams for 397 what should I do? Cuttoff has 500 behind.
Do I rejam? AQ

 

[Station_Master]

Sick spot, would hate to fold top two but also feels like SB has no bluffs plus you need to worry about CO. Depends if they could be raisingwith worse. I probably call in game but i imagine fold is slightly better in practice

 

[ElmerS]

Oh, im sorry. The stakes are 2-2 so the SB is basicly the BB. That changes a lot in this spot in my perspective.

 

[ElmerS]

My thoughts about this hand.

Preflop
A clear open raise. I bomp up the pot to 5x+1 per limper because whe are played almost 300bb deep.

Flop
I decide to check because I think People make more mistakes against a check by betting on position with there betsizes but unfortunatly they check back.

Turn.
At the turn I start of piling in money and bet small to let them raise with there strong hands. So I bet 33%. So the bet is 20.
Now the CUT raises I put here on a made 2 pair hand given the fact she didnt raised on the flop. Yes she can have some slowplayed sets but its not very likely because there was a flushdraw on the flop. Now the SB jams and I see him as a very agressive player Who is capabel to bet out every to pair strong draw and can just have some 99 and 33 in his range and 99 is a hand what he could easily 3-bet preflop.
So in my opinion I have to rejam.

 

[Station_Master]

Let me guess, you lost to a set. There are 6 combos either Co or Sb could have and not that many 2 pairs and draws, 2 A9s, 2 A3s, maybe A9o or AQo is a possibilty if they play preflop badly, but its likely someone has a set.

 

[mclay]

What are we even talking about here? Is this a game for conditional chips or something? Some kind of trash is being discussed here. Where did this game take place?

 

[ElmerS]

What are we even talking about here? Is this a game for conditional chips or something? Some kind of trash is being discussed here. Where did this game take place?

This is a 2-2 live cash game in a local casino in Holland. But I think you would say I have to fold here? Even against a super agressive opponent?

 

[IPlayToWin]

This is a 2-2 live cash game in a local casino in Holland. But I think you would say I have to fold here? Even against a super agressive opponent?

I think you can fold on the situation, and wait for better actions at the tables with better hand, but top two pairs it's very hard to fold, but I can quit, because of sets of 33, and 99.

 

[eetenor]

Hero Abc Qs we have 1600 and cover the hole table 10-max

The first 2 players folds to the MP Who limps.
We raised to 12 and get a called from the Cut off Btn, SB and the original limper.

Flop Ad 9d 3c (pot 62)
Check around

Turn Qc (pot 62)
Check to me, Hero bet 20. Cutoff raises to 70 and SB jams for 397 what should I do? Cuttoff has 500 behind.
Do I rejam? AQ

Why are we checking flop 5 ways in a loose game? Why do we not want to get this pot HU vs a weaker AX or a diamond draw on the flop? By not betting flop we have no clarity on turn at all. Is the jam a set or two pair worse than ours or just AXcc etc etc? When we bet flop our V redefine their ranges.
Turn, why are we betting 20? What are we targeting on the turn for value with 20? Are we hoping a 3x hand calls? Why target that and let all the draws in cheaply. Our V have 8 cards between them which means multiple combos of hands-- we need to clean up some equity by betting pot here not 20. The turn has 2 flush draws possible and 4 Villains we can value bet pot and get called easily hopefully not by everyone.

When we build strong range foundations on flop and turn by betting well it helps us to clarify V ranges on later streets.

 

[ElmerS]

Why are we checking flop 5 ways in a loose game? Why do we not want to get this pot HU vs a weaker AX or a diamond draw on the flop? By not betting flop we have no clarity on turn at all. Is the jam a set or two pair worse than ours or just AXcc etc etc? When we bet flop our V redefine their ranges.
Turn, why are we betting 20? What are we targeting on the turn for value with 20? Are we hoping a 3x hand calls? Why target that and let all the draws in cheaply. Our V have 8 cards between them which means multiple combos of hands-- we need to clean up some equity by betting pot here not 20. The turn has 2 flush draws possible and 4 Villains we can value bet pot and get called easily hopefully not by everyone.

When we build strong range foundations on flop and turn by betting well it helps us to clarify V ranges on later streets.

I check on the flop because I think its really likely that a player in position would take a step. Now the flop checks around I'm pretty sure I will have the best hand a lot of the time.

At the turn I try to size to let my opponent's raise off there two pair and strong flushdraws.
Somebody does, but someone elses 3-bet jammed so now I was in between pushing or folding.

 

[eetenor]

I check on the flop because I think its really likely that a player in position would take a step. Now the flop checks around I'm pretty sure I will have the best hand a lot of the time.

At the turn I try to size to let my opponent's raise off there two pair and strong flushdraws.
Somebody does, but someone elses 3-bet jammed so now I was in between pushing or folding.

So when we study hands we want to think about all the V's ranges and the amount of equity all our V have. We do not want to play this flop the way we would play a normal HU or 3 way pot. We want to get some folds on the flop and we know we can get called vs this many players most often that is why we would bet to get value and clean up equity. The more players in the pot the less likely it is that someone will try to steal the pot so we cannot count on that happening. Also the flush draws that our V can have cannot also have a strong pair so again someone else betting is much less likely as happened here. We want to learn to recognize these spots. The biggest factor here is the flush cards include the Ad when this happens, we want to bet not check.

 

[ScooperNova]

As always, everything is situational. Seeing as how you didn't include any information about the players in the original post, this is an automatic rejam.

I saw in some of your later replies, the SB was very aggressive. This only strengthens my resolve in my opinion.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Pretty large sizing but seems fine in a live game, where you are very deep. You still got 5-way action even going this large.

Flop
Not sure why you are checking here? Is this a sort of pot control, or are you trying to induce bluffs from one of the players behind you? I expect a pretty low bluffing frequency in a 5-way pot, and I am not super thrilled about letting it get checked through and allowing 4 players to potentially draw out on you for free. So I C-bet here. Its a pretty dry board apart from a flushdraw, so you can go kind of small and basically make the bet, you delayed to the turn.

Turn
You essentially only lose to 33 and 99 now, since no draws have gotten there, and AA and QQ would almost always 3-bet preflop. So its 6 realistic combos, which is basically the same as running KK into AA preflop. Folding KK preflop typically require some really sick read and/or crazy action. And while I will admit, that this qualify as crazy action, I still dont think, you have the read to fold. So I sigh-call here. If you are against 33 and 99, at least you now have 4 outs to suck out on them, so you are not drawing dead.

 

[fundiver199]

Sick spot, would hate to fold top two but also feels like SB has no bluffs plus you need to worry about CO.

This was also my first thought, but looking at it again, would SB really play a flopped set this way? Checking the flop to the preflop raiser and the other players behind is pretty standard so no issues here. But when it got checked around, and the turn brings a dubble flushdraw board with some straigthdraws, is he really going to check again and risk it getting checked through another time?

And then when there is action jam for 400 into a pot of around 150, which gives him so much fold equity, people are even debating to fold top two pair? Maybe. But what it looks more like for me is some kind of big draw, that would not mind to see a cheap river, so he check again. But when there is a bet AND a raise, it gets kind of awkward to cold call the raise, and since he dont want to fold, he instead jam for max fold equity. Maybe a hand like JT of diamonds or clubs.

And what is CO checking behind on the flop, which he then want to raise on the turn? The most logical hand would be QQ, but thats almost impossible, because Hero has one of the Qs, and QQ would almost always 3-bet preflop. The other logical option would be a hand like Q9, which turned two pair, and Hero beat that hand.

Or perhaps he could have another AQ, although it seems less likely, he would check that behind on the flop. Or he could also be raising a draw to try to take the pot down right there. So I think, its one of those, where if someone really flopped a set against our top two pair on a board, where there are many draws but no made flushes or straights yet, then we just hand them our money and reload.

 

[Station_Master]

This was also my first thought, but looking at it again, would SB really play a flopped set this way? Checking the flop to the preflop raiser and the other players behind is pretty standard so no issues here. But when it got checked around, and the turn brings a dubble flushdraw board with some straigthdraws, is he really going to check again and risk it getting checked through another time?

And then when there is action jam for 400 into a pot of around 150, which gives him so much fold equity, people are even debating to fold top two pair? Maybe. But what it looks more like for me is some kind of big draw, that would not mind to see a cheap river, so he check again. But when there is a bet AND a raise, it gets kind of awkward to cold call the raise, and since he dont want to fold, he instead jam for max fold equity. Maybe a hand like JT of diamonds or clubs.

And what is CO checking behind on the flop, which he then want to raise on the turn? The most logical hand would be QQ, but thats almost impossible, because Hero has one of the Qs, and QQ would almost always 3-bet preflop. The other logical option would be a hand like Q9, which turned two pair, and Hero beat that hand.

Or perhaps he could have another AQ, although it seems less likely, he would check that behind on the flop. Or he could also be raising a draw to try to take the pot down right there. So I think, its one of those, where if someone really flopped a set against our top two pair on a board, where there are many draws but no made flushes or straights yet, then we just hand them our money and reload.

Fair enough, i think its close either way. Personally i could see either player having a set at a decent frequency. SB could easily be going for a check raise on a board likely to be stabbed and CO could be trappy on flop.

 

[fundiver199]

SB could easily be going for a check raise on a board likely to be stabbed

On the flop that would be a very normal line. But on the turn, when the flop got checked through, and its 5-way? Its possible, but I just find it quite weird.

and CO could be trappy on flop.

He could, but when the preflop raiser has already checked, and he only has one guy left to act behind him, he should definitely not slowplay but go for value and try to build the pot. But of course its a live game and likely the lowest stakes in the casino. So its possible, that people are just really bad at poker and will slowplay big hands, when they should go for value. You might see that online at 2NL or in freerolls as well.

 

[ElmerS]

This was also my first thought, but looking at it again, would SB really play a flopped set this way? Checking the flop to the preflop raiser and the other players behind is pretty standard so no issues here. But when it got checked around, and the turn brings a dubble flushdraw board with some straigthdraws, is he really going to check again and risk it getting checked through another time?

And then when there is action jam for 400 into a pot of around 150, which gives him so much fold equity, people are even debating to fold top two pair? Maybe. But what it looks more like for me is some kind of big draw, that would not mind to see a cheap river, so he check again. But when there is a bet AND a raise, it gets kind of awkward to cold call the raise, and since he dont want to fold, he instead jam for max fold equity. Maybe a hand like JT of diamonds or clubs.

And what is CO checking behind on the flop, which he then want to raise on the turn? The most logical hand would be QQ, but thats almost impossible, because Hero has one of the Qs, and QQ would almost always 3-bet preflop. The other logical option would be a hand like Q9, which turned two pair, and Hero beat that hand.

Or perhaps he could have another AQ, although it seems less likely, he would check that behind on the flop. Or he could also be raising a draw to try to take the pot down right there. So I think, its one of those, where if someone really flopped a set against our top two pair on a board, where there are many draws but no made flushes or straights yet, then we just hand them our money and reload.

Sick read.

I did actually end up jamming since I ruled out probably all sets as well and expected to be up against Q9s and AQ, A9 or A3s a lot of the time. I never even thought about the flushdraws.
After the hand a friend who was playing at the same table said to me I probably had to fold this hand. So thats why I posted it, to see if my thoughtproces was correct.

Your read was correct. He had KJ of clubs and obviously he end up binking a straight with the T of spades.

 

[fundiver199]

Your read was correct. He had KJ of clubs

Yes thats another hand, that makes sense. On the flop he only had backdoors and would likely have folded to any bet. But then on the turn he picked up both his backdoor draws and now had 12 outs. Its probably still a bit of an overplay, since he could be against AX of clubs, in which case he only have 3 outs to a straight. But this kind of overplay is probably still more likely than a set checking twice and risking to let 4 other players get there with draws, and then changing strategy completely and playing it so fast, that most made hands are forced to fold out, when they are essentially drawing dead.

and obviously he end up binking a straight with the T of spades.

It is, what it is. As long as we get it in good, thats all, we can do. Some casinos allow to run the final card twice, in which case you would at least get a chop most of the time.