€200 NL HE Full Ring: €1/3 live no cap: overpair multi-way

[Imayoshi]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$1/$2

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

€

Hello guys,

this hand is actually 1/3 live not 1/2.
A little context before the hand. Big whale who will call any two in the Bb. The main villain(decent 1/3 reg) has been limp/calling alot pre to play IP against the whale.
Hero in Hj with KsKc, villain in Lo with 5d3d

PREFLOP ACTION: UTG+1 call, Lo call, Hj 16, Sb call, Bb call, UTG+1 call, Lo call

FLOP: Qs5h3h Action: check to Hj, Hj 24, Bb call, Lo raise 124, Hj call, Bb fold

TURN: 6d Action: Lo bet 170, Hj call

RIVER: 7d Action: Lo all in 460, Hj call

Do you think this is just a station-call by me 250bb deep or would you call aswell?
My reasoning was that my call-down range must consist of more than the 3 combos of QQ. I figured AA would we a worse calling hand than KK because i dont want to block the gutshots on the flop and i didnt block any flush draws that might be semi bluffing flop and turn.
Im really not sure what to think of this hand because of the dynamics at play.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
If a preflop raise to $16 typically get 4 callers, you might want to go bigger for value and to thin the field.

Flop
Even if theory dictate small bets multiway, you can probably get away with betting bigger than 24 into 80 in a soft game. For instance there is no way, top pair fold on the flop to just a single bet. Calling his raise is pretty mandatory.

Turn and river
You kind of said it yourself. If you always limp behind with small pairs, then the only way for you to have better than a single pair here is to have top set. Which is not enough hands to call down with, if the opponent is capable of bluffing. This comes down to live reads, and since you were the one playing, you are the one, who know.

Results
A larger preflop raise might have gotten rid of 53 offsuit or at least cut down on his implied odds. Either this, make an exploitable fold on the river, or live with the result and move on.

 

[Imayoshi]

Preflop
If a preflop raise to $16 typically get 4 callers, you might want to go bigger for value and to thin the field.

Flop
Even if theory dictate small bets multiway, you can probably get away with betting bigger than 24 into 80 in a soft game. For instance there is no way, top pair fold on the flop to just a single bet. Calling his raise is pretty mandatory.

Turn and river
You kind of said it yourself. If you always limp behind with small pairs, then the only way for you to have better than a single pair here is to have top set. Which is not enough hands to call down with, if the opponent is capable of bluffing. This comes down to live reads, and since you were the one playing, you are the one, who know.

Results
A larger preflop raise might have gotten rid of 53 offsuit or at least cut down on his implied odds. Either this, make an exploitable fold on the river, or live with the result and move on.

I appreciate you insight and yea i agree with what you re saying. A solely theory based approach would be suboptimal in that kind of environment. Another thing is that i wouldnt even overlimp 33 or 55 there I would just fold, which might be another big mistake, given that i was also kind of deep against the whale in the Bb. Also i forgot that another combo in my call down range would be Ah4h which would defenitely get to the river in that spot.

 

[Station_Master]

Very few villains are check raising into 4 opponents as a bluff. Whilst hearts missed, any 4 made a straight (the other logical bluff). I think you have to fold river (if not before).

If you are worried about not having enough call downs then AQ would be a better call as it blocks more 2 pairs, but anyway I wouldn't worry about being exploitable to a fish and would be fine folding all 1 pair hands.

 

[Imayoshi]

Very few villains are check raising into 4 opponents as a bluff. Whilst hearts missed, any 4 made a straight (the other logical bluff). I think you have to fold river (if not before).

If you are worried about not having enough call downs then AQ would be a better call as it blocks more 2 pairs, but anyway I wouldn't worry about being exploitable to a fish and would be fine folding all 1 pair hands.

yea you might be right.my table image was very terrible tho(constantly 3betting and c betting without value)so i just leveled myself thinking he wanted to iso the whale in the bb thinking i would just fold. but in retrospect most heart combos probably just want to call the c bet given the price. also given that he shows up with 53s means that he likely has 2h4h, 4h6h, 4h7h in his range aswell. I guess its just a station call by me. would you fold directly on the flop then , cause kings are close to dead against his value range?

 

[Station_Master]

yea you might be right.my table image was very terrible tho(constantly 3betting and c betting without value)so i just leveled myself thinking he wanted to iso the whale in the bb thinking i would just fold. but in retrospect most heart combos probably just want to call the c bet given the price. also given that he shows up with 53s means that he likely has 2h4h, 4h6h, 4h7h in his range aswell. I guess its just a station call by me. would you fold directly on the flop then , cause kings are close to dead against his value range?

No you have to call flop, turn is close, river is a fold (in my view, of course it depends what your opponent is capable of)

 

[fundiver199]

would you fold directly on the flop then , cause kings are close to dead against his value range?

An overpair is not drawing close to dead against two pair. In this particular hand you had 25,5% equity on the flop and 18,2% on the turn. Which is not all that different from calling with a draw. Its very exploitable to fold on the flop, and even on the turn, when he only bet around half pot. But you can fold on the river, since now you are purely bluff catching, and as others have said, some draws got there. Which mean he now has less natural bluffs and even more value.

Its also worth noting, that he jammed for extremely thin value, since he had the bottom two pair, and there was a 1-liner to a straight. Depending how much you have played with him, this could be an indication, that your hand was very face up to him as hardly ever anything better than an overpair or top pair. And the way to fix this could be to widen your isolation range preflop. Its completely fine to isolate limpers with a small pair or suited connector, when you are this deep. And it avoid this situation, where you know, you are extremely capped, and maybe the opponent knew it as well.

 

[John A]

Good job w/ your advice! Even w/ your previous post about pre-flop sizing as well.

An overpair is not drawing close to dead against two pair. In this particular hand you had 25,5% equity on the flop and 18,2% on the turn. Which is not all that different from calling with a draw. Its very exploitable to fold on the flop, and even on the turn, when he only bet around half pot. But you can fold on the river, since now you are purely bluff catching, and as others have said, some draws got there. Which mean he now has less natural bluffs and even more value.

Its also worth noting, that he jammed for extremely thin value, since he had the bottom two pair, and there was a 1-liner to a straight. Depending how much you have played with him, this could be an indication, that your hand was very face up to him as hardly ever anything better than an overpair or top pair. And the way to fix this could be to widen your isolation range preflop. Its completely fine to isolate limpers with a small pair or suited connector, when you are this deep. And it avoid this situation, where you know, you are extremely capped, and maybe the opponent knew it as well.

 

[AdamasDate]

Hey brother hope your well also you shouldn't tell people what the hand was straight away it's interesting to see the theory

Preflop

I don't know what the general raise sizes are but it seems u need to go alot larger here one for value and 2 you said the person in the bb calls with any 2 cards unless the read is wrong so get your value

Flop

Once we get here muli way we need to be careful as shit they have ton of sets and 2 pair hands and decent flush draws and they tend to fold all the hands u beat u have to hope someone just has a Q and get sticky with it but it's unlikely muti way I wouldn't hate a check here or if I was to bet more likely a small size like 20% pot and likely call a raise and see what happens on the turn

Turn

Brings in some straight draws and he's still blasting off in this case I would feel am in rough shape they have a range advantage against you they can have all the best sets 2 pair and straight while you have very few I would make a fold here I wouldn't like it why its easier checking the flop and they will have to bet more aggressively to get money in with there best hands and easier to make the fold but ok we call

River

Makes a 1 liner to a 4 possible which I believe is relevant when he jams we beat very little of his value range Qx and because he limped its more likely he does this with pocket pair or suited connecter and on these kinda textures your fried deffo a fold here what your kinda left with is a bluff catcher and do u think he's finding enough bluffs in this spot I don't feel so

 

[Imayoshi]

Hey brother hope your well also you shouldn't tell people what the hand was straight away it's interesting to see the theory

Preflop

I don't know what the general raise sizes are but it seems u need to go alot larger here one for value and 2 you said the person in the bb calls with any 2 cards unless the read is wrong so get your value

Flop

Once we get here muli way we need to be careful as shit they have ton of sets and 2 pair hands and decent flush draws and they tend to fold all the hands u beat u have to hope someone just has a Q and get sticky with it but it's unlikely muti way I wouldn't hate a check here or if I was to bet more likely a small size like 20% pot and likely call a raise and see what happens on the turn

Turn

Brings in some straight draws and he's still blasting off in this case I would feel am in rough shape they have a range advantage against you they can have all the best sets 2 pair and straight while you have very few I would make a fold here I wouldn't like it why its easier checking the flop and they will have to bet more aggressively to get money in with there best hands and easier to make the fold but ok we call

River

Makes a 1 liner to a 4 possible which I believe is relevant when he jams we beat very little of his value range Qx and because he limped its more likely he does this with pocket pair or suited connecter and on these kinda textures your fried deffo a fold here what your kinda left with is a bluff catcher and do u think he's finding enough bluffs in this spot I don't feel so

thanks for your reply. i agree preflop i can just go way larger than 16 but i just want to stay consistent with my pre flop sizes, but that might be a huge mistake in the 1/3 streets. also i think a flop check back might have been the best option, instead of betting and playing a bloated srp. i think i just stationed there cause ive seen people bluff me with absolute airballs all night so that kinda got to me.