$2 NL HE Full Ring: Too loose pre-flop raise?

[lacroir]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

I was playing the below hand today and it came out well but still wondering if it was a good play by me.

My thoughts:

• Preflop: 4 limpers already, I thought about no limping. Either fold or raise big.
• Flop: The Ace is risky but I wanted to eliminate as many players as possible, having like suited lower connectors or hands like KT/QT/KJ.... It succeeded I only faced one player, who I now put to having an Ace or maybe a straight draw with JT/QJ/QT.
• Turn: Hid the trips, all good. In my opinion, I did a standard raise that was needed.
• River: Fortunately an irrelevant card. No flush or straight draw possibilities. The only hands I should be afraid of are 88, AA, AK, K8 or K2.
  AA and AK I hardly doubt: that should have incurred a massive 3-bet on flop and/or turn.
  88 should have already folded latest on the turn in my opinion, as I represented some strong hands from the start.
  K8 or K2 shouldn't have even entered the game preflop.

What do you think? Was it a correct play and assumptions or would you do something differently?

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

MindiPark (UTG): $3.56 (178 bb)
Vgruby (UTG+1): $1.86 (93 bb)
BadBrot (MP): $4.10 (205 bb)
WSOPchamp020 (MP+1): $2.69 (135 bb)
Taromsiti (LP): $1.65 (83 bb)
tsypace (CO): $1.74 (87 bb)
gogirchakigor (BU): $2.00 (100 bb)
attila947 (SB): $0.72 (36 bb)
Lacroir (BB): $2.27 (114 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Lacroir) is BB with K♥ Q♣
1 fold, Vgruby (UTG+1) calls $0.02, 2 players fold, Taromsiti (LP) calls $0.02, tsypace (CO) calls $0.02, gogirchakigor (BU) calls $0.02, attila947 (SB) calls $0.01, Lacroir (BB) raises to $0.08, Vgruby (UTG+1) calls $0.06, Taromsiti (LP) calls $0.06, 1 fold, gogirchakigor (BU) calls $0.06, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.36) 2♣ A♥ K♠ (4 players)
Lacroir (BB) bets $0.18, Vgruby (UTG+1) folds, Taromsiti (LP) calls $0.18, gogirchakigor (BU) folds

Turn: ($0.72) K♦ (2 players)
Lacroir (BB) bets $0.35, Taromsiti (LP) calls $0.35

River: ($1.42) 8♣ (2 players)
Lacroir (BB) bets $0.69, Taromsiti (LP) folds

Total pot: $1.42 (Rake: $0.05)
Lacroir (BB) wins $1.37

 

[Station_Master]

Your preflop squeeze is way too small so you will get loads of callers. It should be at least a pot size raise, I would probably make it 14c here.

There is no point cbetting this flop when oop, with 3 callers and middle pair. When you get called it's likely by an Ace that has you crushed, occasionally a weaker K could call, but its certainly better to check and see what happens, probably calling a reasonable bet.

Obviously you get very lucky on the turn and your opponent likely folds an Ace on the river.

 

[lacroir]

Your preflop squeeze is way too small so you will get loads of callers. It should be at least a pot size raise, I would probably make it 14c here.

There is no point cbetting this flop when oop, with 3 callers and middle pair. When you get called it's likely by an Ace that has you crushed, occasionally a weaker K could call, but its certainly better to check and see what happens, probably calling a reasonable bet.

Obviously you get very lucky on the turn and your opponent likely folds an Ace on the river.

Thanks for your feedback! So you would not bet on flop due to the fact that there are too many players? Being a pre-flop aggressor and just checking on flop wouldn't it signal weakness and occasionally let weaker players to improve on later streets? I also put villain on some Ax but with a weaker kicker so I thought that for pressure he might fold even an Ace as I represented a stronger hand.

 

[Aballinamion]

Thanks for your feedback! So you would not bet on flop due to the fact that there are too many players? Being a pre-flop aggressor and just checking on flop wouldn't it signal weakness and occasionally let weaker players to improve on later streets? I also put villain on some Ax but with a weaker kicker so I thought that for pressure he might fold even an Ace as I represented a stronger hand.

I agree with Station Master: your preflop raise should be 3x (or 4x depending on your game style and bankroll management) + 1x for every limper: ergo 3 + 5 = 8 blinds or 4 + 5 = 9 blinds.
The reason behind our check OOP is that many players will limp using weak aces. Plus, we don’t have a monster hand that requires protection. And on top of that, even when we have very good equity, let’s suppose you raised JJ+ and AJs+, even in this scenario our equity reduces a lot for we have five players yet to speak and just one of them is OOP.
You got lucky, we shouldn’t assume weak players would fold weak/dominated aces when playing NLHE 2: this is the sole reason they limp preflop, to go to a river with any ace, they don’t understand the game. We should go for value most of times and not expecting a limper will have a common sense to fold some hand postflop.
You got lucky all villains fold, most likely they hadn’t any ace. If they had it you would get called and cry on the river.

 

[lacroir]

I agree with Station Master: your preflop raise should be 3x (or 4x depending on your game style and bankroll management) + 1x for every limper: ergo 3 + 5 = 8 blinds or 4 + 5 = 9 blinds.
The reason behind our check OOP is that many players will limp using weak aces. Plus, we don’t have a monster hand that requires protection. And on top of that, even when we have very good equity, let’s suppose you raised JJ+ and AJs+, even in this scenario our equity reduces a lot for we have five players yet to speak and just one of them is OOP.
You got lucky, we shouldn’t assume weak players would fold weak/dominated aces when playing NLHE 2: this is the sole reason they limp preflop, to go to a river with any ace, they don’t understand the game. We should go for value most of times and not expecting a limper will have a common sense to fold some hand postflop.
You got lucky all villains fold, most likely they hadn’t any ace. If they had it you would get called and cry on the river.

Thanks for you too!
It's a bit devastating to realise, that I didn't play it well (rather the opposite) while I thought it was a good play - especially that I had (I thought) proper reasoning for each of the streets.. 😅

I think the key take-aways here:

• Preflop raise shall be much bigger if I expect them to fold. 4BB is simply too small when there are 5 limpers.
• Shouldn't expect that in NLHE2 I can make players fold a top pair under pressure just because they might be dominated because of their low kicker.

 

[Station_Master]

Thanks for your feedback! So you would not bet on flop due to the fact that there are too many players? Being a pre-flop aggressor and just checking on flop wouldn't it signal weakness and occasionally let weaker players to improve on later streets? I also put villain on some Ax but with a weaker kicker so I thought that for pressure he might fold even an Ace as I represented a stronger hand.

You dont need to win every pot. These middling hands dont want to put loads of money in the pot as you will often be losing when you get calls especially when with so many opponents it's so likely at least one is ahead of you. You can check call flop and then on a good turn (like here) you could lead, check call or check raise and win a nice pot.

Yes you could get out drawn by checking but you need to weigh that up versus losing more money when you are beat

 

[Aballinamion]

Thanks for you too!
It's a bit devastating to realise, that I didn't play it well (rather the opposite) while I thought it was a good play - especially that I had (I thought) proper reasoning for each of the streets.. 😅

I think the key take-aways here:

• Preflop raise shall be much bigger if I expect them to fold. 4BB is simply too small when there are 5 limpers.
• Shouldn't expect that in NLHE2 I can make players fold a top pair under pressure just because they might be dominated because of their low kicker.

Listen to Station Master as well, he has a good experience and already passed through this limit we are playing now.
Yes, it can be devastating but also rewarding. We must assume that we can think in a non optimal way and begin to make optimal choices.
The fact one is reasoning doesn’t prove the thought is correct, e.g, many people own a ton of Darth Vader theories to prove that the earth is flat, and they have a preposterous scientific apparatus to prove their crazy ideas. Doesn’t mean they are right, logic can be used wrong and many times for evil.
One can make calculations to understand energy and space. Other use the same logic to build atomic weapons. Some people use flaw logic to explain that the sun spins around the earth and goes on.
Let’s be humble and human: we only learn through and by mistakes. Mistakes and errors is what make us so special, it shows that we have the ability to learn and continue doing it.

Best regards;