$2 NL HE 6-max: Can you help with bet sizing to knock someone off a draw?

[pocketacesbeast]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG (Hero): $4.42 (221 bb)
MP: $2.00 (100 bb)
CO: $1.27 (64 bb)
BU: $2.79 (140 bb)
SB: $1.90 (95 bb)
BB: $3.89 (195 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with J♠ K♦
Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, CO calls $0.08, BTN calls $0.08, SB calls $0.07, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.34) J♥ T♠ 3♠ (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.24, 2 players fold, SB calls $0.24

Turn: ($0.82) 8♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.40, SB calls $0.40

River: ($1.62) 4♣ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $1.62 (Rake: $0.08)

Showdown:
UTG (Hero) shows J♠ K♦ (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 61%, Flop: 59%, Turn: 64%, River: 100%)

SB shows 8♠ 7♠ (a pair of Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 39%, Flop: 41%, Turn: 36%, River: 0%)

UTG (Hero) wins $1.54

 

[kdmeteor]

I don't think trying to get your opponents to fold draws is something you should aspire to do. The mistake people make is to call too much with draws, so the way you make money is by them paying you off if they shouldn't. Just don't assume that, if the draw completes by the River, that they can't have it because you've made it expensive. They can always have it. People love chasing draws, especially flushes.

That said, the way I personally would have played this is to bet half pot on the Flop (which would have made the Pot 68ct, assuming you still only get one caller), and then bet big on the Turn, probably slightly larger than the size of the pot. In general, I think people tend to go too small on the Turn. It's very rare that I bet a larger % of pot on the Flop vs. Turn, whereas 40%->90% or something is quite common. By calling the Flop, your opponent has announced that they have a hand, so charge them.

I would have also bet the River. Your opponent doesn't have to have the draw, they can also pay you with a T or a weaker J. And the draw missed, so they could put you on a busted draw that's bluffing the River.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Why are you opening to 4BB? Is this your standard sizing, and what idea is behind that? A large sizing can work, when people call to much and dont 3-bet enough. But its a little outdated in online cash games, and when you move up, you are going to have to "unlearn" it again. So I kind of question, how valuable it is to spend time developing a 4BB open sizing strategy specifically for 2NL? Or maybe even specifically for this table? Also KJ UTG is not exactly a monster, so I assume, you are not using different opening sizes here? Because in that case it would not make sense to size up with this hand in particular.

Flop
For a 4-way pot your bet is a bit on the large size, but I dont think, this is as big an issue as your preflop sizing.

Turn
Q9 got there, but 8d is still a relatively safe card, so I would also bet again.

River
The opponent only has around a 75% pot sized bet left, so if you are going to bet, it pretty much has to be a jam. Which mean, you are then putting in almost a full stack with just top pair second kicker. That is kind of iffy, so I can understand, why you checked back and took the free showdown. But at the same time when you have a hand this strong and hit a very clean runout but still feel, you cant bet the river for value, then something has gone wrong. And what is wrong here is, that you put in to much money with your sizing preflop and on the flop.

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG (Hero): $4.42 (221 bb)
MP: $2.00 (100 bb)
CO: $1.27 (64 bb)
BU: $2.79 (140 bb)
SB: $1.90 (95 bb)
BB: $3.89 (195 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with J♠ K♦
Hero raises to $0.08, 1 fold, CO calls $0.08, BTN calls $0.08, SB calls $0.07, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.34) J♥ T♠ 3♠ (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.24, 2 players fold, SB calls $0.24

Turn: ($0.82) 8♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.40, SB calls $0.40

River: ($1.62) 4♣ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $1.62 (Rake: $0.08)

Showdown:
UTG (Hero) shows J♠ K♦ (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 61%, Flop: 59%, Turn: 64%, River: 100%)

SB shows 8♠ 7♠ (a pair of Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 39%, Flop: 41%, Turn: 36%, River: 0%)

UTG (Hero) wins $1.54

I think we are opening too many hands from UTG if we elect to open KJo and similar combos. On top of that we are raising to 4 blinds which is a big sizing both for value or for bluff. Remember that we are going to miss the pot a few chunk of times, so we are throwing blinds away automatically when we go for 3.5x or 4x. We like to go for 2.5 or 3x preflop with our entire range (semi-bluffs like AK and values like AA, for example).
The problem is that we are the first one to act and many times we are going to be dominated by a 3-bet range or a calling range that might include Ax and AJ.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

I don't think trying to get your opponents to fold draws is something you should aspire to do. The mistake people make is to call too much with draws, so the way you make money is by them paying you off if they shouldn't. Just don't assume that, if the draw completes by the River, that they can't have it because you've made it expensive. They can always have it. People love chasing draws, especially flushes.

Yes I agree people do love to chase draws.

That said, the way I personally would have played this is to bet half pot on the Flop (which would have made the Pot 68ct, assuming you still only get one caller), and then bet big on the Turn, probably slightly larger than the size of the pot. In general, I think people tend to go too small on the Turn. It's very rare that I bet a larger % of pot on the Flop vs. Turn, whereas 40%->90% or something is quite common. By calling the Flop, your opponent has announced that they have a hand, so charge them.

I dont think ive ever bet more than the pot on any street, interesting, I will try it. Yes my turn bet was only 50%, too small.

I would have also bet the River. Your opponent doesn't have to have the draw, they can also pay you with a T or a weaker J. And the draw missed, so they could put you on a busted draw that's bluffing the River.

I think i was too much of a nit, scared of the Ace Jack or Jack Ten. But really its only a part of their range.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

Preflop
Why are you opening to 4BB? Is this your standard sizing, and what idea is behind that? A large sizing can work, when people call to much and dont 3-bet enough. But its a little outdated in online cash games, and when you move up, you are going to have to "unlearn" it again. So I kind of question, how valuable it is to spend time developing a 4BB open sizing strategy specifically for 2NL? Or maybe even specifically for this table? Also KJ UTG is not exactly a monster, so I assume, you are not using different opening sizes here? Because in that case it would not make sense to size up with this hand in particular.

I think i got the idea off BlackRain79, I heard about it when I was just starting out. I might be missapplying the strategy. What I remember him saying is, because you have bad position, its preferable to take it down early, so add an extra blind preflop. My standard raise preflop is 3bb. Im not sure if this was the right situation for it. I just kind of do it all the time now!

Flop
For a 4-way pot your bet is a bit on the large size, but I dont think, this is as big an issue as your preflop sizing.

I guess my strategy was to thin the field?

Turn
Q9 got there, but 8d is still a relatively safe card, so I would also bet again.

Didnt even consider Q9..

River
The opponent only has around a 75% pot sized bet left, so if you are going to bet, it pretty much has to be a jam. Which mean, you are then putting in almost a full stack with just top pair second kicker. That is kind of iffy, so I can understand, why you checked back and took the free showdown. But at the same time when you have a hand this strong and hit a very clean runout but still feel, you cant bet the river for value, then something has gone wrong. And what is wrong here is, that you put in to much money with your sizing preflop and on the flop.

Okay understood. Opponent's stack is something i need to keep reminding myself to consider.

 

[fundiver199]

I don't think trying to get your opponents to fold draws is something you should aspire to do.

I dont think ive ever bet more than the pot on any street, interesting, I will try it. Yes my turn bet was only 50%, too small.

I think, you are still missing the point made by kdmentor. In a cash game the goal is almost never to make people fold their draws. The goal is to get value from draws and/or give them incorrect odds to continue. In this hand your opponent flopped a flushdraw + gutshot, which is a 12 out draw, and on the turn he picked up a pair as well. A hand with this much equity is not supposed to fold to almost any bet sizing. And if you try to make it happen anyway, you are valueowning yourself, when you are beat, and you also miss out on value from made hands, that are worse than yours. This hand was supposed to go to showdown, and the only mistake is your betsizing, which is far to big preflop, slightly large on the flop and a bit small on the turn.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

I think we are opening too many hands from UTG if we elect to open KJo and similar combos. On top of that we are raising to 4 blinds which is a big sizing both for value or for bluff. Remember that we are going to miss the pot a few chunk of times, so we are throwing blinds away automatically when we go for 3.5x or 4x. We like to go for 2.5 or 3x preflop with our entire range (semi-bluffs like AK and values like AA, for example).
The problem is that we are the first one to act and many times we are going to be dominated by a 3-bet range or a calling range that might include Ax and AJ.

Yes its a dangerous position. I guess we need to consider how aggressive the table is

 

[fundiver199]

I think i got the idea off BlackRain79, I heard about it when I was just starting out. I might be missapplying the strategy. What I remember him saying is, because you have bad position, its preferable to take it down early, so add an extra blind preflop. My standard raise preflop is 3bb. Im not sure if this was the right situation for it. I just kind of do it all the time now!

Blackrain79 played poker and wrote his first book 15 years ago. Today this idea is very outdated. Actually we know from solvers, than if anything a smaller sizing is better from early position, because more players can take position on us or 3-bet us, both of which is bad. A GTO sizing for non ante cash games is pretty close to 2,5BB and a bit more from SB, because we are out of position against the only player left.

You can size up to 3BB in soft games like 2NL, but the only reason to go even bigger would be, if the current BB is a total drooler, who is just never folding, and you have a premium hand like AA or KK. But KJ is far from premium. Its actually a hand, that can even be folded from UTG at 6-max, and if you are raising to 3BB with your range, you probably should.

I guess my strategy was to thin the field?

Which you should. But in a multiway pot a smaller bet should also achieve that. People are not supposed to continue with bottom pair or A high, when they have other players left to act behind them or for that matter overcall, when someone else have called already. Maybe you will see people calling to much at 2NL, but in my opinion a 40% pot bet would still get at least someone to fold.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

I just read an article on valueowning. It was saying sometimes you have to 'valueown' yourself to be a more profitable player in the long run. Like this hand, i could value bet on river and take the risk of valueowning myself instead of being timid and taking the free showdown.

Ill ditch the BR79 strat then

 

[kdmeteor]

I think we are opening too many hands from UTG if we elect to open KJo and similar combos.

This is a 6max table, so "UTG" is actually just the Lojack. I agree that opening KJo first position on 9max is very bad, but on 6max, it seems... well, very marginal. Should be about the bottom of the range, but I don't think it's a big mistake.

Agree with everyone that 4x sizing is probably not a good idea. I think exploitatively, you could vary RFI sizing, but I'd do it in the opposite way, i.e., bet larger from later position.

 

[fundiver199]

I just read an article on valueowning. It was saying sometimes you have to 'valueown' yourself to be a more profitable player in the long run. Like this hand, i could value bet on river and take the risk of valueowning myself instead of being timid and taking the free showdown.

This is true and depending on, how bad this opponent was, maybe you could have jammed the river for value. You need to be good more than 50% when called, but if he is usually raising 2 pair or better on the turn, and will also hero call with hands like AT, KT or QT, then maybe its a fine value shove. But its not really fundamentally sound poker, because you bet to much preflop and on the flop. And once you fix that, you will arrive at the river with more stack left behind.

Also when you move up, there will be less players, who will stack off with second pair or worse, and then you absolutely can not play for stacks with just top pair second kicker. And since the main purpose of 2NL is to get practice (or have fun), I dont recommend learning strategies, which you then have to unlearn again already at 5NL or 10NL. A HUD is very usefull here also though, since it helps you to identify the fish, who might call down to light and the tight players, where you would 100% be value owning yourself, if you jam this river with KJ.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

Agree with everyone that 4x sizing is probably not a good idea. I think exploitatively, you could vary RFI sizing, but I'd do it in the opposite way, i.e., bet larger from later position.

Heres what i found from upswing poker on RFI (i cant remove bold for some reason!) ​

https://upswingpoker.com/preflop-open-strategy-rfi-explained/

There are two common approaches when it comes to RFI size:

• Raise to the same size from every position (except the Small Blind). That size should be 2.25bb or thereabouts. The upside of this strategy is how easy it is to execute.
• Use a smaller raise size from early position and increase your size as you get closer to the Button. This is the more theoretically sound strategy that might be a bit tougher to execute.

Most players who increase their preflop raise size in later position only do so from the button. For example, they may raise to 2bb from every position except the Button, in which case they’d raise to 2.5bb. That’s the strategy we see most of the world’s best players using.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Im not sure how to do fractions of blinds. I seem to remember either only being able to do 2 or 3 blind raises ill have a tinker with PokerStars

 

[pocketacesbeast]

This is true and depending on, how bad this opponent was, maybe you could have jammed the river for value. You need to be good more than 50% when called, but if he is usually raising 2 pair or better on the turn, and will also hero call with hands like AT, KT or QT, then maybe its a fine value shove. But its not really fundamentally sound poker, because you bet to much preflop and on the flop. And once you fix that, you will arrive at the river with more stack left behind.

Yes Ive seen many people call with second pair or bet with second pair or even bottom pair. Its like theyve hit something, theyre in. Same mentality with chasing draws. Need to keep that in mind.

Also when you move up, there will be less players, who will stack off with second pair or worse, and then you absolutely can not play for stacks with just top pair second kicker. And since the main purpose of 2NL is to get practice (or have fun), I dont recommend learning strategies, which you then have to unlearn again already at 5NL or 10NL. A HUD is very usefull here also though, since it helps you to identify the fish, who might call down to light and the tight players, where you would 100% be value owning yourself, if you jam this river with KJ.

At the moment I plan to stick to low stakes, I just want some extra pocket change from people worse at poker than I am! ..

 

[steve01991]

sometimes not even an all in will take someone off of a draw , it really depends on the player and how desperate he it.

 

[fundiver199]

At the moment I plan to stick to low stakes, I just want some extra pocket change from people worse at poker than I am! ..

Thats cool but even at 5NL and 10NL you will run into less complete beginners and drunks and more people, who have at least some idea, what they are doing. And playing 2NL will likely get tiring after a while