$2 NL HE 6-max: can you help me improve my game on this hand?

[pocketacesbeast]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

edit Please can mods delete first 2 posts?

 

[pocketacesbeast]

Oh dear Pokertracker formatting has done a whoopsie

 

[pocketacesbeast]

Pokertracker format isnt the easiest to read, sorry about that!
- can anyone help me format it to show cards?


PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 27)
BTN: 251.5 BB (VPIP: 41.94, PFR: 18.28, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 93)
SB: 84 BB (VPIP: 43.86, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 58)
Hero (BB): 194 BB
UTG: 197.5 BB (VPIP: 75.31, PFR: 6.17, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 81)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:heart: 9:club:

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, BTN calls 1 BB, fold, Hero checks

Flop: (3.5 BB, 3 players) 6:diamond: 7:spade: 8:diamond:
Hero checks, UTG bets 3.5 BB, BTN calls 3.5 BB, Hero calls 3.5 BB

Turn: (14 BB, 3 players) T:spade:
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, UTG calls 4 BB

River: (26 BB, 3 players) A:spade:
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN checks

Hero shows Q:heart: 9:club: (Straight, Ten High)
(Pre 45%, Flop 47%, Turn 95%)
BTN mucks 4:heart: 6:heart: (One Pair, Sixes)
(Pre 30%, Flop 16%, Turn 2%)
UTG mucks 2:club: 8:club: (One Pair, Eights)
(Pre 24%, Flop 38%, Turn 2%)
Hero wins 24.5 BB

 

[fundiver199]

As for format I recommend using the free hand converter here on CC. You find it under "poker", "tools".

Preflop
No need to raise this hand, a free look at the flop is perfect.

Flop
You flop an OEDS, but even before we start to make a plan for the hand, its important to realise, that this is a pretty bad draw. The reason is, you are drawing to a 1-liner, which makes it difficult to get paid, and there is also a risk, someone else can have a 9 as well, in which case you are only drawing to win half the pot. There are also some reverse implied odds, if a 5 come, and someone have T9, or if a T come, and someone have J9. Finally there are two diamond on the board, so Td or 5d could make your hand but also make someone else a flush.

So how do we want to play a bad draw like this? Typically we either want to play it with aggression or not at all. My preferred play here is to lead out, since its a limped pot. If you can get hands like A5, KJ or 22 to fold, thats a great outcome. And if you get raised, you can just fold without giving up to much equity. As played with a check, when one guy bet full pot, and the other player call, I would simply fold. Yes you are getting better odds multiway, but you still need 25% equity, and there are many combinations of hands, they can have, where you have far less than that.

Turn
You make your hand, and since its such an obvious hand, its kind of unlikely, that anything worse will now bet for value. There are also two flushdraws now, so more than half the deck is bad for you potentially completing a better draw or pairing the board. Or even counterfeiting you, if a 9 comes. So its a bit of a disaster, if it gets checked through, and for that reason I like leading AKA donk betting in this situation, if I check-called the flop. You check though, UTG check as well, and now BTN makes a small bet, which look pretty weak. And for the reasons just stated I would check-raise this bet, if I played the turn as a check. Its more important to get value from BTN, when he has a hand with equity, than to try to induce a light overcall from UTG.

River
Now one of the flushdraws complete. Its pretty weird to lead AKA donk bet on a card, thats bad for you. If you do this, you are kind of saying, you rivered a flush, so you are actually overrepresenting your hand. Therefore as played I would also check and then most likely call, if one of them bet. But if it goes bet from UTG and big raise from BTN, then you can also fold and not invest any more.

Result
Its questionable, if you could have gotten more value from these two pieces of cheese, and given, what they actually had, you were ahead on the flop, so folding would have been a mistake. But I still think, you could benefit from taking some less passive lines in general. Lead the flop as a semi-bluff and also lead the turn for value instead of hoping, that someone will build the pot for you.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

Good to see you! @fundiver199

you are drawing to a 1-liner: ive not heard of that, could you tell me what that means please?
Yes if a 5 came and they had 9/10 id probably get stacked. J9 also fairly common hand, youre right!

"Td or 5d could make your hand but also make someone else a flush."
Great point. So that would reduce my outs, ive just learned about that on the 30 day course. I made the call on flop based on 3:1 pot odds (IIRC). I think OESD is 31% or so to hit by river? But like you said, there are potential situations where im dominated, like flushes and superior straights, which puts a dampener on things..

I agree that aggression is better. I allowed one of 2 flush draws to land. Im slightly gunshy at micros. Perhaps raise on flop and turn and if im reraised then assume they have nuts and fold. Also agree about river calling one player, not two, especially as they are slightly loose, they have a wider range than me. I think me leading on river would probably induce a call only from people with better hands.

 

[fundiver199]

you are drawing to a 1-liner: ive not heard of that, could you tell me what that means please?

A 1-liner is a straight or flush using only 1 hold card and 4 community cards. Such a hand is much easier to make than a straight or flush using both hold cards, and therefore its less valuable. If you have AK on QJT rainbow, its unlikely, you are chopping, and its not that difficult to get paid. But if you have A5 on KQJT rainbow, you will often be chopping, and its difficult to get paid. Maybe a set will call a turn bet drawing to a boat, but everything else is likely to fold, if you make a big bet for value.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

One additional question if i may; when calling draws should you only consider odds for the next street or can you also consider both streets

So when considering odds of hitting an OESD on turn, should i base the decision to call a bet on the odds being better than 17% on turn or 31% by river?

 

[fundiver199]

One additional question if i may; when calling draws should you only consider odds for the next street or can you also consider both streets

So when considering odds of hitting an OESD on turn, should i base the decision to call a bet on the odds being better than 17% on turn or 31% by river?

This is a good question, and there is no straight forward answer. If the opponent is always betting the turn, they are usually not check-folding, just because you complete your draw. So in that situation you might only have 17% chance to hit, but you also have implied odds, when you do hit. But again this depends on, how obvious your draw is, and if you are drawing to a 1-liner straight, then often implied odds are not really there.

For me if the opponent bomb the flop, I typically expect them to also do a lot of turn betting, and if that will force me to fold, then that will certainly play into my decision. Like if pot is 5, they bet 4, and they only have 16 left behind. Then its already shaping up to them jamming most turns, and since I will not be getting the odds to call that with most draws, I might fold already on the flop. Or if my draw is strong enough, I might jam rather than call.

 

[Aballinamion]

Pokertracker format isnt the easiest to read, sorry about that!
- can anyone help me format it to show cards?


PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 27)
BTN: 251.5 BB (VPIP: 41.94, PFR: 18.28, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 93)
SB: 84 BB (VPIP: 43.86, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 58)
Hero (BB): 194 BB
UTG: 197.5 BB (VPIP: 75.31, PFR: 6.17, 3Bet Preflop: 8.00, Hands: 81)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:heart: 9:club:

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, BTN calls 1 BB, fold, Hero checks

Flop: (3.5 BB, 3 players) 6:diamond: 7:spade: 8:diamond:
Hero checks, UTG bets 3.5 BB, BTN calls 3.5 BB, Hero calls 3.5 BB

Turn: (14 BB, 3 players) T:spade:
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, UTG calls 4 BB

River: (26 BB, 3 players) A:spade:
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN checks

Hero shows Q:heart: 9:club: (Straight, Ten High)
(Pre 45%, Flop 47%, Turn 95%)
BTN mucks 4:heart: 6:heart: (One Pair, Sixes)
(Pre 30%, Flop 16%, Turn 2%)
UTG mucks 2:club: 8:club: (One Pair, Eights)
(Pre 24%, Flop 38%, Turn 2%)
Hero wins 24.5 BB

Nice hand. I wouldn't have played this in a different way. I tend to check more when I enter pots that came in limp. We got some equity but hands that check on the big blind after limping are most of times losing hands, so I tend to play almost my entire checking range following this pattern, no matter if I hit a boat or nothing. Well played.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

This is a good question, and there is no straight forward answer. If the opponent is always betting the turn, they are usually not check-folding, just because you complete your draw. So in that situation you might only have 17% chance to hit, but you also have implied odds, when you do hit. But again this depends on, how obvious your draw is, and if you are drawing to a 1-liner straight, then often implied odds are not really there.

Okay, so you might call a bet that has slightly worse pot odds than 17% in that situation where they are likely to bet next street, because you'll get paid off better than 17%. Unless it's an obvious or potentially dead straight, in which case you won't get paid or you might get large reverse implied odds.

For me if the opponent bomb the flop, I typically expect them to also do a lot of turn betting, and if that will force me to fold, then that will certainly play into my decision. Like if pot is 5, they bet 4, and they only have 16 left behind. Then its already shaping up to them jamming most turns, and since I will not be getting the odds to call that with most draws, I might fold already on the flop. Or if my draw is strong enough, I might jam rather than call.

Jam as a semi bluff?

 

[fundiver199]

Okay, so you might call a bet that has slightly worse pot odds than 17% in that situation where they are likely to bet next street, because you'll get paid off better than 17%. Unless it's an obvious or potentially dead straight, in which case you won't get paid or you might get large reverse implied odds.

Exactly.

Jam as a semi bluff?

Yes. Even if they only fold like 10% of the time, thats better than nothing. And it also makes sure, I get the full stack, when I hit.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

If someone has a VPIP of 40+ and PFR of 10-20, like a couple of players in this hand, would you describe that as loose passive? Is there slang name for it?

 

[pocketacesbeast]

CO I would describe as a regular

 

[pocketacesbeast]

UTG a recreational player (the polite term hehe)

 

[pocketacesbeast]

Yes. Even if they only fold like 10% of the time, thats better than nothing. And it also makes sure, I get the full stack, when I hit.

Food for thought, so youd be getting even better odds because they fold 10% and more equity(?) when they call! (with >50% the time calling with a worse hand)

 

[fundiver199]

If someone has a VPIP of 40+ and PFR of 10-20, like a couple of players in this hand, would you describe that as loose passive? Is there slang name for it?

A VPIP of 40+ is the classic definition of a fish, unless its a shorthanded game like heads-up or 3-handed. Other more polite names are fun player, recreational or VIP.

Food for thought, so youd be getting even better odds because they fold 10% and more equity(?) when they call (with >50% the time calling with a worse hand)

If the opponent fold 10% of the time, you win those pots uncontested, and therefore you dont need to win the other pots quite as often. Or course its way better, if they fold 50% of the time, but even 10% matter and change the math slightly.

 

[pocketacesbeast]

I think on the river I might have made a bet for value. I probably would have called a.reasonable bet from opponent as the flush hit late and it would be unlikely.

Edit- Think we covered it already actually, could have busted straight too, but only part of range

 

[pocketacesbeast]

VIP lmao.

Fold equity is something I'll look into thanks

(Brb in 2 hours reached post limit!)