$2 NL HE 6-max: TPTK cbet is jammed on the flop

[puzzlefish]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

Another weird spot on 2NL zoom on Stars, after I recently saw A8s jam AIPF to get called by AJo. Something is in the water tonight.

Here's a weird spot. 4 handed play after a trappy weak 3bet from UTG followed by a 4bet from BB. Then the following happened.

pokerstars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $4.09 (205 bb)
MP: $2.00 (100 bb)
CO: $2.31 (116 bb)
BU (Hero): $2.83 (142 bb)
SB: $1.74 (87 bb)
BB: $2.32 (116 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with Q♠ A♥
UTG raises to $0.05, 2 players fold, Hero calls $0.05, SB calls $0.04, BB 3-bets to $0.24, UTG calls $0.19, Hero calls $0.19, SB calls $0.19

Flop: ($0.96) Q♥ 6♦ T♥ (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.61, SB raises to $1.50 (all-in), 2 players fold, Hero ???

Looking for a line check on my bet sizing on the flop. I don't like BB and UTG checking it. It's coordinated but I have TPTK and feel like I should be value betting here to make any draws pay.

Then, what do we do with agrojammer on SB?

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Its fine to call here, but you could also 3-bet from time to time, especially if people rarely 4-bet light. When BB squeeze, it looks very strong, since he could just put in another 3c and see a flop. And UTG should also have a strong range to call that 3-bet with 2 players behind him. Its not like, you are getting the best price here, and AQo definitely have some reverse implied odds against snug ranges. So while it might seem very tight, I actually think, there is a case for just saying goodbuy to your 5c and let the other goofballs do, what they want to do.

Flop
Pretty good flop for you obviously, and nice that both BB and UTG has checked. I think, its fine betting, but there is no need to go so big in a multiway 3-bet pot. Something like half your sizing give people more room to continue with second best hands or even spass out and raise a hand like AK as a bluff. As played I am not thrilled, that SB check-jam. But he did not even start with a full stack, and you are getting better than 3:1. So I dont see, how you can ever fold here. Sure you could be behind to hands like TT, 66 or QTs, but he could also be going with a hand like KQ or some kind of draw.

 

[Aballinamion]

UTG raises to $0.05, 2 players fold, Hero calls $0.05, SB calls $0.04, BB 3-bets to $0.24, UTG calls $0.19, Hero calls $0.19, SB calls $0.19

I don’t like calling with these combos versus EP. My strategy is simply to 3-bet or fold. When we call we reduce our own odds, opening space for the players in the blinds to call or squeeze.
Now we don’t know if BB was squeezing for value or for bluff. If we do 3-bet and BB 4-bets, we could have a better picture of how to proceed.
I’m never calling from MP, CO, BU and SB holding AJ+, KJ+. Only with the pocket pairs, but sometimes I even fold these.
In poker the wiser is not to do anything a 100% of times, except going all-in or calling it preflop (for cash games).

Flop: ($0.96) Q♥ 6♦ T♥ (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.61, SB raises to $1.50 (all-in), 2 players fold, Hero ???

As long as you bet that much, I don’t think we can ever be folding this versus a short stack nonsensical fish. We are calling this 90% of times, if aggroloser has us, good for it, let the chips fall as they may.

 

[Poker Orifice]

As long as you bet that much, I don’t think we can ever be folding this versus a short stack nonsensical fish. We are calling this 90% of times, if aggroloser has us, good for it, let the chips fall as they may.

Why is SB 'aggroloser'? Is it because OP called him an 'aggrojammer'? Look at the size of the pot and the size of the bet.

 

[Aballinamion]

Why is SB 'aggroloser'? Is it because OP called him an 'aggrojammer'? Look at the size of the pot and the size of the bet.

Thanks for your observation, and yes, I’m referring to villain as OP has called it “aggrojammer”.
Now you brought a good point: aggression is betting too often or betting too much? Or a combination of both?

Best regards;

 

[fundiver199]

Why is SB 'aggroloser'? Is it because OP called him an 'aggrojammer'? Look at the size of the pot and the size of the bet.

The point being made here is, that SBs decision to check-jam only tells us, he did not want to check-fold. The reason is, Heros bet was so large, that if SB decided to check-call, he would be committed to the pot anyway. Meaning he could never fold later, unless maybe on the worst possible runouts like 4 to a flush or straight, which he did not have. So him check-jamming is no stronger than him check-calling. This is something, a lot of players dont understand, and which we must think about before even putting out a bet. And typically we do not want to commit ourselfes or other players to the pot without making an actual all-in. And this is why, Heros flop bet is to large.

 

[Sopt]

Personally I don't like calling with hands like AQ, especially if people were only limping before me. That way if people limp behind you they could join the pot with every possible trash hand and catch 2 pair or better on flop. Especially since we are talking about micro limits.
The other reason why I don't like calling is that I can't evaluate strength of opponent hands that way, especially UTG. In your case BB did the raising for you, but with so many people already limping, you were bound to have all of them in a lot of them in the pot without actual tells how strong they might be. On micro limits people who limp usually also tend to call 3 bet, even with bad hands.
So my play pre flop would be 3-bet into calling 4 bets from blinds or folding to 4 bet from UTG, because I would have put him on slow playing hand like KK.
Post flop play was OKish. There are draws on the board, but you should have the best hand at that point. The only hands already being ahead of you on flop I can see is TT and 66 from big blind or Q10 from small blind.
Once small blind went all in I'm most likely calling, because of the way the hand went he's either hoping for some of the draws or you're beating him with better kicker, but no matter what he has, he is small stack and you are kind of committed to this pot already. You are "only" risking another 90c to get 3$.

 

[Maximum]

In NL2 i think this is easy call ,sometimes he will had it but you win in 80% of the cases here .

 

[Poker Orifice]

The point being made here is, that SBs decision to check-jam only tells us, he did not want to check-fold. The reason is, Heros bet was so large, that if SB decided to check-call, he would be committed to the pot anyway. Meaning he could never fold later, unless maybe on the worst possible runouts like 4 to a flush or straight, which he did not have. So him check-jamming is no stronger than him check-calling. This is something, a lot of players dont understand, and which we must think about before even putting out a bet. And typically we do not want to commit ourselfes or other players to the pot without making an actual all-in. And this is why, Heros flop bet is to large.

'look at the size of the pot & the size of the bet' ... your response was what I intended for Aballi to surmise from my comment

 

[Aballinamion]

'look at the size of the pot & the size of the bet' ... your response was what I intended for Aballi to surmise from my comment

Are you talking about Hero/OP bet?
Really, I don’t understand what is your point here. It seems everyone agree that Hero’ bet was way too large. And villain was stack broken. So...?

 

[gustav197poker]

In this sequence BB's squeeze is a reasonable size. In this case, when UTG calls it is a bit of a borderline situation for us, since we don't have any indication to suspect about the game of said player. In fact, the call preflop could be understood in that sense (that the opening range V is presumed to be very strong, otherwise we could 3-bet preflop). So here we would only be calling to take advantage of the position and keeping in mind that we need to be good about 1 out of 4 times.
Indeed, the bet on the flop is a bit big, but totally understandable, since we have an important blocker, the Ah, and there wasn't much previous action from the villains, except for the squeezer.
When SB raises, maybe he could do it with worse Qx (if we suspect he is a weak player). There could also be some semi bluffs in his range and of course he could also have hands that beat us (likely on a sticky villain as well).
A no less important factor is that the stake we play, 2nl, in which it is very likely that the villain is indeed a weak player.
Greetings.

 

[puzzlefish]

I think, its fine betting, but there is no need to go so big in a multiway 3-bet pot. Something like half your sizing give people more room to continue with second best hands or even spass out and raise a hand like AK as a bluff.

And this is why, Heros flop bet is to large.

It seems everyone agree that Hero’ bet was way too large.

Indeed, the bet on the flop is a bit big, but totally understandable, since we have an important blocker, the Ah, and there wasn't much previous action from the villains, except for the squeezer.

I guess my question here would be "too big for what?". From my perspective, I am on a draw-heavy board here with three other players and I want to take the pot down. Maybe I should just jam? But then I am only getting called by better, whereas maybe with a large flop bet there will be some draws that do call?

I just find using smaller sizing in 2NL gets way more people to come along than what I would like.