$2 NL HE 6-max: Is this ever justified? Bizzaro world

[NootNoot]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

Played a very unusual hand a few days back against what looked like an extremely unorthodox opponent. Went all-in pre-flop with AQo deep-stacked for 231 BBs. I'd never normally overlimp here and am not very often all-in pre-flop with AQo at all, let alone so deep in a cash game. Was suspecting action from the villain from the little I'd seen and got it.

It's been playing on my mind a bit since.

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 4 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $0.44 (22 bb)
BU (Hero): $4.61 (231 bb)
SB: $5.78 (289 bb)
BB: $1.89 (95 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with Q♥ A♠
UTG calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02, SB raises to $1.50, 2 players fold, Hero 3-bets to $4.61 (all-in), SB calls $3.11



What I knew about the player:
Strange as hell.

Hand 1 observed: Absolutly bizzare, UTG (LJ) min raises, villain min 3 bets, folds to the big blind who 4 bets 7 BB, UTG folds, villain 5 bets to 17 BB, big blind goes all in, villain calls. Villain has 7 3 off.

Hand 2: HJ raises to 2.5 BB, villain (SB) min raises it up to 4 BB, HJ raises to 18 BB, villain to 32 BB, HJ all in, villain calls. Villain has Q 5 off.

Hand 3: Everyone folds to villain in the big blind.

Hand 4: Villain (UTG) raises to 25BB from UTG, everyone folds.

Hand 5: Villain folds from the HJ.

Hand 6: UTG raises to 21 BB and is all in, villain raises to 57.5 BB and is all in. Shows 3 3. Hits 3 of a kind vs AA and the BB who came along with QJo for unknown reasons.

A few more like that but you get the picture. The table was so strange in general.

Spoiler: Result

Villain had KJo and my hand held up

 

[Station_Master]

Nice job in trapping the maniac. AQ is a clear value shove against someone who can be doing this with any 2 cards.

 

[Vallet]

You know, we often think about why another player did that. In this case, it is interesting to find out why the opponent makes a 75-bet on the preflop. Why exactly this size of the bet. But the answer to this is not destined to be received. Because sometimes the opponents themselves don't think.

 

[NootNoot]

Nice job in trapping the maniac. AQ is a clear value shove against someone who can be doing this with any 2 cards.

Thanks. I know it's not exactly a challenging hand to assess in terms of gameplay. It did feel like a bit of a punt even against that villain. It's only $2 NL but I'd worked for that stack. Probably me just being nitty.

Obviously we can stray away from the gameplan the more our opponents do.

 

[Station_Master]

Yeah its uncomfortable getting 200+ bb in with AQ but has to be done. Also you are often only getting it in with 60% equity and so 40% of the time you lose and get tilted that 93o got there!

It reminds me of a hand I played at 2NL a few years ago I will see if I can dig it out later

 

[Funtast]

Did you want to trap? Imho against those guys an open to 4BB doesn´t hurt because if they are on fire they do this stuff anyway. So I´d say that overlimp was terrible. But easy jam against that type of freak. GJ at the end.

 

[Station_Master]

This is the hand I was thinking of @NootNoot . Similar to yours in a way where you end up in a very uncomfortable spot preflop. Basically the Button was shoving pretty much every hand so I was hoping to get it in with him. However, two other players called in between! Whilst TT isnt what you normally want in a 4way all-in for 400bb, I figures everyone else would be calling off lighter. Fortunately I held up and won probably my biggest pot at 2NL (possibly still my biggest pot in BBs)

888Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $2.00 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $7.04 (352 bb)
MP: $2.00 (100 bb)
MP+1: $0.93 (47 bb)
CO (Hero): $1.97 (99 bb)
BU: $3.70 (185 bb)
SB: $2.60 (130 bb)
BB: $2.68 (134 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with T♦ T♥
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP+1 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.15, BTN 3-bets to $3.70 (all-in), SB calls $2.59 (all-in), 1 fold, UTG calls $1.98 (all-in), 2 players fold, Hero calls $1.82 (all-in)

Flop: ($9.23) T♠ A♥ J♥ (4 players, 4 all-in)

Turn: ($9.23) Q♥ (4 players, 4 all-in)

River: ($9.23) 5♣ (4 players, 4 all-in)

Total pot: $9.23 (Rake: $0.57)

Showdown:
BU shows 5♥ J♠ (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 20%, Flop: 2%, Turn: 2%, River: 0%)

CO (Hero) shows T♦ T♥ (three of a kind, Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 47%, Flop: 93%, Turn: 87%, River: 100%)

SB shows 7♣ 7♠ (a pair of Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 16%, Flop: 2%, Turn: 2%, River: 0%)

UTG shows 8♦ 8♥ (a pair of Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 17%, Flop: 3%, Turn: 9%, River: 0%)

BU wins $1.21
CO (Hero) wins $7.45

 

[NootNoot]

Did you want to trap? Imho against those guys an open to 4BB doesn´t hurt because if they are on fire they do this stuff anyway. So I´d say that overlimp was terrible. But easy jam against that type of freak. GJ at the end.

Yes, I wanted to trap, but that super-sized (even for him) pre-flop raise threw me off. I was thinking if I raised pre it might be one of the rare times he folds too. Not the best thinking from me. Was hoping he'd do something more in line with what he'd done previously too, and that we'd see a flop, more on that in a second.

He actually did me a favour in a way in retrospect as it would have been impossible to judge where I was post flop so the 75BB raise of his meant it was much more of an all-in or nothing decision.

The hands I listed of his were actually wrong, that's what happened afterwards. Thought it didn't add up compared to how I remembered it! I had my pokertracker set to most recent hands first and I was mistakenly looking at those.

Anyway, up to that point I can clarify he was VPIP 86.36, PFR 59.09 from 25 hands

The only 3 hands I'd seen of his were 99 and 66, both ended up as all-ins pre-flop following his opens for 25BB and 35BB. There was also a 23 off that he limped from the button in a small pot.

What he also had was winning uncontested pots with raises to 10BB, 50BB, 35BB, 2BB, and 15BB x 3.

There were 3 pots he took down on the flop. 1 after he raised 20BB unopened, 1 after he raised to 20 BB in the big blind after a standard raise and a call, and 1 after he min 3 bet pre.

Obviously he must have very wide raising range, although only actually having seen pocket pairs with my own eyes when he'd been raising big made me doubt if it was the right move. I wouldn't have been particularly happy to see another pair. The extra large raise of his, even by his own standards gave me doubts too. Does that mean he's stronger than for his usual raises is what I was thinking.

Anyway, it worked out in the end. Got it in as 64% favourite so whatever happened I would have been happy with that.

@Station_Master thanks for that, I like your thinking there with the other players possibly calling off lighter than they usually would. Nice job!

 

[puzzlefish]

Do you like flipping coins? Because this isn't that much better than a coin flip. It's roughly 60/40 your way but you're not always going to get called by KJo here. I don't really agree that you've trapped your villain here. You can trap someone to call from far behind maybe if you had aces or kings, but otherwise you would trap on the flop or thereafter. This is just coin flipping at best and I think you're more likely to lose money doing this.

 

[NootNoot]

Do you like flipping coins? Because this isn't that much better than a coin flip. It's roughly 60/40 your way but you're not always going to get called by KJo here. I don't really agree that you've trapped your villain here. You can trap someone to call from far behind maybe if you had aces or kings, but otherwise you would trap on the flop or thereafter. This is just coin flipping at best and I think you're more likely to lose money doing this.

It was basically a case of villain raising big and too often for them to reasonably have premium hands here all the time and me deciding I was going to put that to the test with something that was going to be ahead of what I was seeing as their overall raisng range. No guarantees I'd be ahead on the hand in question of course so it felt like a bit of a gamble. Add in that we were deep stacked too and it was a big pot to potentially lose.

I don't love 60/40s, would rather have better odds if I could, but then I'd be happy enough all-in preflop with AK to see I was up against 78s for similar.

Best way to deal with someone like this then? Wait and wait and wait until we have aces or kings? Asumming they don't bust out before then?

 

[Station_Master]

Do you like flipping coins? Because this isn't that much better than a coin flip. It's roughly 60/40 your way but you're not always going to get called by KJo here. I don't really agree that you've trapped your villain here. You can trap someone to call from far behind maybe if you had aces or kings, but otherwise you would trap on the flop or thereafter. This is just coin flipping at best and I think you're more likely to lose money doing this.

What are you taking about!!! This is a printing spot. Hero puts 231 BB in to win 462Bb (slightly less with rake), 60% equity means an average 277bb win, I.e. 46bb more than hero put in. That's huge! You could also cash out on PS f or a small fee if you cant stomach the variance

Folding here would be 46bb blunder

 

[fundiver199]

Any sort of normal strategy goes out the window, when you are playing against a maniac like this. So not much to say here other than well done.

 

[puzzlefish]

What are you taking about!!! This is a printing spot. Hero puts 231 BB in to win 462Bb (slightly less with rake), 60% equity means an average 277bb win, I.e. 46bb more than hero put in. That's huge! You could also cash out on PS f or a small fee if you cant stomach the variance

Folding here would be 46bb blunder

This is 60/40 in this particular instance and he didn't know villain had KJo. I do not advocate folding but I don't think jamming is the way to go to make this a money printing situation. And the whole point of poker is not to be results oriented.

 

[Station_Master]

This is 60/40 in this particular instance and he didn't know villain had KJo. I do not advocate folding but I don't think jamming is the way to go to make this a money printing situation. And the whole point of poker is not to be results oriented.

Would expect to be about 60% v villain's range too

 

[puzzlefish]

Would expect to be about 60% v villain's range too

I don't know about that. I see 5 hands of history and no sense of whether the same players may have been involved in the pots. But regardless, I wouldn't fold the hand. That much we agree on.

 

[NootNoot]

I don't know about that. I see 5 hands of history and no sense of whether the same players may have been involved in the pots. But regardless, I wouldn't fold the hand. That much we agree on.

I messed up in the original post and corrected it in a lengthier one today.

Villain had been there for 25 hands. Only hands I'd actually seen them showdown were pocket nines and pocket sixes, after 25BB and 35BB raises in unopened pots. There was also a 23o that villain limped at some point.

There were numerous other overized raises ranging from 15-50 BB. VPIP was 86.36, PFR 59.09.

Thanks for the answers everyone, just being playing round with this equity range calculator.

vs villain's overall 59% PFR I'd have been at 62% + 3% tie (rounding results to nearest %)

If we go for tighter ranges:

vs top 50.2 % = 61% + 2% tie
vs top 39.5% = 60% + 4% tie
vs. top 30% = 59% + 5% tie
vs. top 25.5% = 57% + 5% tie
vs. top 20.2% = 55% + 6% tie
vs top 15.% = 52% + 7% tie
vs top 10% = 45% + 10% tie (coinflip)

Now this was the biggest raise I'd seen which I thought could have meant a stronger hand than villain was normally raising with. Then again, villain had just doubled their stack the previous hand so perhaps they felt emboldened to push things even further.

Edit: I highly doubt there was much of anything in terms of fold equity for me against this player which would normally be a factor too.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Inducing the donkey to do what they like doing the best - 'nh'

 

[Aballinamion]

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with Q♥ A♠
UTG calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02, SB raises to $1.50, 2 players fold, Hero 3-bets to $4.61 (all-in), SB calls $3.11

Personally I would never do such a move against any type of players. I wouldn't limp preflop as well, I mean never. 100% of times I'm raising preflop or folding. But this is me. As played, it was a poor move to limp preflop and give up on our equity and position, specially when we are deep stacked. Second, SB makes a preposterous preflop raise, that it doesn't make any sense and we elect to go all-in when we should've folded. I don't know what villain had, maybe you got lucky but this is not a game of pure luck, per se. And even if we get luck and villain has whatever 76s, we are still losing a bunch of times and we are deep. So no matter the result (this is why I quoted, not to read the spoiler and bias my opinions), try to avoid to limp preflop and take initiative upon the pot.
Why do you think that limping is a good strategy? How limping is helping you at the tables so far? How many hands you won limping? Have you ever considered another approach?
Take a look on CardsChat poker course there is a lot of good things about position and why we must be aggressive at the tables.

 

[NootNoot]

Personally I would never do such a move against any type of players. I wouldn't limp preflop as well, I mean never. 100% of times I'm raising preflop or folding. But this is me. As played, it was a poor move to limp preflop and give up on our equity and position, specially when we are deep stacked. Second, SB makes a preposterous preflop raise, that it doesn't make any sense and we elect to go all-in when we should've folded. I don't know what villain had, maybe you got lucky but this is not a game of pure luck, per se. And even if we get luck and villain has whatever 76s, we are still losing a bunch of times and we are deep. So no matter the result (this is why I quoted, not to read the spoiler and bias my opinions), try to avoid to limp preflop and take initiative upon the pot.
Why do you think that limping is a good strategy? How limping is helping you at the tables so far? How many hands you won limping? Have you ever considered another approach?
Take a look on CardsChat poker course there is a lot of good things about position and why we must be aggressive at the tables.

Hi, thanks for the response. I had a few bits of info wrong in the orginal post as it had been a few days since I'd played the hand, I clarified it in an updated post. Not that it necessarilly makes it any better!

Villain had been raising ridiculous amounts often in the 25 hands they had been at the table. That was the biggest raise of all and came on the back of them doubling up.

They were at VPIP 86.36, PFR 59.09. I'd seen raises of 2BB, 10BB, 15BB (3 times), 20BB (2 times), 35BB and 50BB in unopened or unraised pots. Unless they were running extremely hot it appeared that they had a very wide range for raising and kept raising huge. I overlimped to try and keep them in, fearing they might actually fold for once if I raised pre. Also a little case of what's the point in raising if I'm just going to fold to their oversized 3 bet which was likely going to come anyway?

That was the first time I've seen anyone quite that crazy! My reasoning for jamming was that I thought I'd be ahead of their overall raising range from what I had seen so far. I know it was a big gamble which is why I posted the hand.

Obviously we should adjust to our opponents, but the question in a way was how far do we take that? That was a hugely ridiculous deviation from how I'd normally play agasinst a hugely ridiculous opponent. I'd never normally consider playing like that if I had no previous hands on the player or if someone did that randomly having played conventionally prior to that. I was extremely uncomfortable doing it but in a way it seemed to make sense considering how far out of line the villain was getting. I'm unsure though.

It also begs the question of how to play vs. like someone like that? On average I'd be waiting 100+ hands to see AA or KK to finally look them up, do we let them have the blinds for that many hands in a row, hope someone else stacks them before that and they leave, or just leave ourselves if we're unsure as to how to combat this? Is that wasted oppurtunity if we do? Do we loosen our all-in range at all? If so, by how much? AA and KK isn't my the extent of my normal all-in range, just an example. AQo isn't usually in there though, happy to share that.

I saw it as an extremely rare set of circumtances. It turned out I was right about their range but even so it left me feeling very unsure.