$10 NL HE 6-max: Good or bad fold aganist 4bet from SB?

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SrMartis

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Hello friends! Here's a hand I played at bodog that give-me some doubts.

The buttom limped,

SB (53BBs) raises 5BB, now the pot is 7.

This 5x bet didn't surprised me, I'm my read he could be doing that to punish the limper.
So he could be doing that with KJ+, AT+, QJ+, or some premium.

Hero in the BB (92BBs) with 99, 3bets to 12BB, pot now 18BBs

Button fold, and SB 4bets to 30BBs leaving 27BBs behind.

To final pot was 43BBs.

I decided to fold but I was wondering If I should just called preflop, or jam aganist I'ts 4 bet...

1712408835025
 
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martDdart

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Good solid fold reason: sb probably had AA or KK, with AK sb probably would have reraised allin or called and with QQ sb would have called.
 
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gustav197poker

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Here I would be calling the raise of SB. I wouldn't turn my hand into a 3-bet when V is effective at almost 50bb and the open limper remains to be speak, simply to avoid playing with an SPR that is too low. If BU were the effective stack, I could eventually 3-bet but it does not apply in this case.
As played it is correct to fold the 4-bet, anyway your 3-bet seemed quite small to me. I would make it at least 15BB.
 
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fundiver199

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Yes you should either just have called his raise, or gotten it in against his 4-bet. Its a late position confrontation, so players are supposed to have very wide range, and as you say yourself, he was attacking a limper. He also started with only a little over half a stack, which mean, his stack-off range is wider, and you are getting pot odds after putting in 12BB already.

Finally such a stack size is a fish tell, which makes me put him on an ever wider range, than a good player would have here. And if you dubble him up, now you have position on a full stacked fish, which is more profitable than having position of a half stacked fish. So dont be afraid to get in there and gamble it up a little bit with fish, when you have position on them.
 
AdamasDate

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I Believe call is the better Ev action no need to raise with 99 if you call Either the limper behind calls with a weaker range or he folds outright then you try hit a set or a good board when he 4 bets you chances are your flipping against AK AQ maybe KQS on the looser side and thats hopeful its more then likely your against 10s plus and your drawing to 2 outs bad shape
 
puzzlefish

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Call pre-flop and see if you get a favourable flop. 99 is not the greatest hand to stack off with, even against a perceivable loose SB player.
 
Poker Orifice

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Call pre-flop and see if you get a favourable flop. 99 is not the greatest hand to stack off with, even against a perceivable loose SB player.
Why are we assuming the SB is a loose player? He might be TAF
 
pentazepam

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People have forgotten the calling option pre-flop in modern poker.
 
Aballinamion

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Hello friends! Here's a hand I played at Bodog that give-me some doubts.

The buttom limped,

SB (53BBs) raises 5BB, now the pot is 7.

This 5x bet didn't surprised me, I'm my read he could be doing that to punish the limper.
So he could be doing that with KJ+, AT+, QJ+, or some premium.

Hero in the BB (92BBs) with 99, 3bets to 12BB, pot now 18BBs

Button fold, and SB 4bets to 30BBs leaving 27BBs behind.

To final pot was 43BBs.

I decided to fold but I was wondering If I should just called preflop, or jam aganist I'ts 4 bet...

View attachment 357944
As Nathan Williams always says: before taking any action, always consider stack sizings. I don't know why Hero is playing broken stack, it shouldn't, it makes our actions less profitable.
Small Blind position usually has a capped range. Let's dive into it:

1 - Small Blind is the worst position ever. Villain has to put more blinds on the pot and there's still the Big Blind and the limper to act.

2 - Small Blind is always out of position. On these low limits players almost always will be playing only the most strong holding from the SB, so the range is not only capped but unbalanced. A 5 blinds raise preflop means that SB is screaming that he wants to isolate the Big Blind to play out of position versus the limper on the button and SB is trying to make the pot grow as soon as possible to try to take as most blinds as possible of the limper.

3 - Small Blind is short-stacked, nearly 50 blinds which means that we are neither calling nor making a 3-bet here because once we hit a monster hand on the flop we are not getting paid enough postflop to justify either our call preflop or our 3-bet. Avoid to 3-bet players that are short-stacked.

4 - Small blind has positional disadvantage: Small Blind cannot simply call or raise with any kind of junk because it will play out of position no matter what. Which means that most of times that SB raises preflop, either versus a limper or a 3-bet, they most likely will display the most strongest holdings.

As other have said I think that calling preflop COULD be a more profitable move if both Hero and Villain were 100 blinds effective stack. None of them are. We are calling a 5 blinds raise to see a flop that we no ideia if we are able to bluff the opponent out of the pot or to play a 3 way pot where, in the best case scenario we are winning 50 blinds instead of a 100 blinds. So we are folding here.
A 3-bet preflop is also not a good option, for the same stack reasons.

Considering this range you assign for villain, which I think it's correct, we own 46% equity, which means that villain must fold at least 46% of times to make our 3-bet automatically profitable. And I don't think so, once SB raises 5 blinds preflop that it would fold to any 3-bet.

So, summarizing:

1 - Play deep stacked ALWAYS! Always play with 100 blinds effective stack, put the auto top up chips option or do it manually once you get down on your chips.

2 - Before entering any pot always consider position and stack sizings! What's the point of making a 3-bet preflop either for value or for bluff versus a player that has 40, 50, 60 blindish? Why are we calling to setmine when villain has only 30 blinds to give us when we hit our set? That's not profitable, we make all of our action thinking one step ahead, we do it preflop already knowing what is going to happen on the flop, turn and river, otherwise we don't do any action, we fold.

3 - We are not playing hands we are playing our opponents! It doesn't matter that we have JJ from the Big Blind once a NIT player raises from UTG and a regular 3-bets in position. We fold our JJ and wait for another situation. Always remember we are not playing the hands.
 
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99 is ok to 3bet here, but a more polarised strategy would be better of 3bet value that can call a 4bet (or 5bet) and 3bet bluffs that can fold to a 4bet. It sucks folding out good but not great hands like 99 to a 4bet.
 
puzzlefish

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Why are we assuming the SB is a loose player? He might be TAF
I'm not, and we shouldn't, but still shouldn't be 3 betting here in my opinion even if they were abusing the small blind position here against big blind.

I'd much rather see a flop with 99 than bloat the pot.
 
LUKADONCICMVP

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good fold keep it up patience is key.
 
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fundiver199

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99 is ok to 3bet here, but a more polarised strategy would be better of 3bet value that can call a 4bet (or 5bet) and 3bet bluffs that can fold to a 4bet. It sucks folding out good but not great hands like 99 to a 4bet.
In this particular spot I would not have a 3-bet / fold to 4-bet range, because BTN is so short and went to 5BB, which is a very large raise. So anything, I 3-bet here, I would be willing to stack off against his 4-bet. And if I was not willing to stack off, then I would just call his 5BB in position. What has not been mentioned by anyone is the fact, that in a situation like this, there is also some merit to just calling an isolation raise to give the limper a chance to continue making mistakes both pre- and postflop.

When we 3-bet in a hand with limpers, they are usually just going to fold, unless they are complete whales or were "trapping". And then we just win 1BB from them risking in this case 12BB. Or even 15BB if Hero has sized better. Whereas if we just call here, then the limper most likely call as well. And then we can potentially win a big pot, when they catch up to a second best hand. Like we have 99, they have A8, and flop comes 8XX. Or more commenly we have a hand like AQ, they have A8, and flop comes AXX.
 
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SrMartis

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Very interesting line of thinking. These guys who limps frequently really like to play a lot of pois in multiway.

If I made the call I give him some incentives to play this flop too, so the implied oods could be better now against this fish.

On the flop the short stack guy has less incentive to bluff so much out of position aganist 2 players.

If we hit nothing and he bets, easy fold and only 4 BBs lost instead of 12, at the least we had a chance to stack'em off.
 
John A

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3-bet smaller if you're going to 3-bet. Your goal is to ISO the fish in the SB. As played, at this point I'd shove. A short stack like this after flatting a limp and raise can have almost anything, of which you have plenty of equity to call it off at that point.
 
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pokernomad

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I agree with previous comments about simply calling the raise make more sense here - 99 might be a 3bet against a normal raise size, but I would be very cautious because of the effective stack sizes.

Before you 3 Bet, You should also consider what happens if villain 4bets - what is you plan? If you can't call the 4bet, or shove all in at this stack depth, then calling the initial raise is the better play.
 
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SrMartis

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I agree with previous comments about simply calling the raise make more sense here - 99 might be a 3bet against a normal raise size, but I would be very cautious because of the effective stack sizes.

Before you 3 Bet, You should also consider what happens if villain 4bets - what is you plan? If you can't call the 4bet, or shove all in at this stack depth, then calling the initial raise is the better play.

Nice, in this situation I really had no plan that's why I decided to fold.

It simply messed my line of thinking hahaha.

Thanks for all coments and thoughts!
 
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