€10 NL HE 6-max: 1000bb deep bluffing but rivering showdown value

[Station_Master]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.05/$.10

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

€

Game #1892653020: Table DSL €100 NL - 0.05/0.10 - No Limit Hold'Em - 18:30:04 2023/06/08
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: QueenOHeart (€99.71)
Seat 2: StationMastR (€100.56)
Seat 3: HefBundy (€194.11)
Seat 4: Adoo6 (€51.11)
Seat 5: gbhnumzrmz72 (€60.86)
Seat 6: Siiuuuummmm (€100) (sitting out)
*** Blinds and button ***
StationMastR (hero) has the button and is dealt Kh9h
HefBundy posts small blind €0.05
Adoo6 posts big blind €0.10

*** Preflop ***
gbhnumzrmz72 folds
QueenOHeart folds
StationMastR (BTN, hero) raises €0.25 to €0.25
HefBundy (SB) raises €0.75 to €0.80
Adoo6 (BB) calls €0.70
StationMastR calls €0.55

*** Flop *** [8d 7s 2s] €2.40 in pot (ignoring rake)
HefBundy bets €0.55
Adoo6 calls €0.55
StationMastR calls €0.55

Villain bets super small on a dry board, even with the call in between I feel like the price is too good to fold with the backdoor draw, position and being 1000 BB deep giving me a chance to make moves later given no-one has shown much strength. Note I am far from an expert at playing this deep!

*** Turn *** [8d 7s 2s] [6c] €4.05 in pot (ignoring rake)
HefBundy bets €0.75
Adoo6 calls €0.75
StationMastR raises €4.10 to €4.10
HefBundy calls €3.35
Adoo6 calls €3.35

A good turn card giving me an OESD, I'm aware not all my outs are clean and I'm not drawing to the nuts, but still a decent turn. When villain bets this small (and the BB just calls again) I'm expecting alot of overcards that have missed, so I felt like it was a good spot to raise and apply pressure. I was very surprised when not just one but both villains called!

*** River *** [8d 7s 2s] [6c] [9d] €16.35 in pot (ignoring rake)
HefBundy checks
Adoo6 checks
StationMastR ???

So the 9d comes on the river giving me top pair and putting a 4 liner to a straight. The flush draw has missed. We are still 950bb deep or so.

What's the play here, do we continue to bluff or do we have enough showdown value here? I found it quite hard to range villains given the passive lines, it didn't seem like overpairs - which would suggest draws, yes the flush missed but they are unlikely to both have that, could someone be overvaluing A8s? I wasn't sure if they would lead straights being this deep or try to get a check raise - certainly a 5 probably just calls, a T probably x-raises? and JT for sure would. In the end I felt I had enough showdown value to check behind and obviously no chance of folding straights - what do you think?

 

[300HPGOD]

I suck at these depths so I will put that disclaimer here at the top so everyone is aware.

Pre: I think is fine except that I think even 100 BBs deep at 10NL we should be 3xing so here even deeper with a suited hand I would at least 3x and maybe could make a case for a bigger raise. 2.5x is not terrible by any means but I think 3x is better unless we really know that one of the blinds is a raisy type and we know we are getting 3 bet a lot and will be calling in position to that raise so then 2.5x is cheaper. Then it makes sense to 2.5x but otherwise I like 3x or more.

Flop: I'm sure my lack of skills here will show especially super deep but I am not calling this even with the price. I would have liked at least two backdoors (meaning at least 1 heart) or at least the board to be rainbow even if the heart was the odd man out in the rainbow but here when we call I feel we are too dependent on a 6,10 or K to come as even a 9 still makes us on alert. Then we get that we still need another that avoids a spade so I just fold here. That could be wrong this deep but I think one single backdoor against what we already know is two players is not enough for me since we will be folding so many turns.

Turn: After calling flop and getting one of the cards we need this must be a continue. Then it comes down to call or raise. I understand where you are coming from but I think I would take a relatively cheap card here and just call. We are in this hand because of stack depth so do we expect our opponents to fold to us when they are aware of the depth as well? I think they will look for reasons to continue just as we did and with this being the card under the board I just call. I would like the raise better if it was the 10 vs the 6 since then our draw would be more exclusive and less likely be against a better straight. Remember, we only want to be playing for 1000 bb stack if we truly have the nuts. Even 2nd nuts should be weary of playing for that deep so even though we are that deep I would not be looking every good hand to play for all the chips.

River: To me, easiest check back in the world. Since we raised turn there will be/should be less one pair hands that will call here and all better stuff will fold minus maybe a very slight chance two pair could fold but I doubt that as well. I think if you bet here you might even get check raised as a bluff at times against certain opponents so I think this is a snap check back and take the showdown value of 9x.

 

[Aballinamion]

Game #1892653020: Table DSL €100 NL - 0.05/0.10 - No Limit Hold'Em - 18:30:04 2023/06/08
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: QueenOHeart (€99.71)
Seat 2: StationMastR (€100.56)
Seat 3: HefBundy (€194.11)
Seat 4: Adoo6 (€51.11)
Seat 5: gbhnumzrmz72 (€60.86)
Seat 6: Siiuuuummmm (€100) (sitting out)
*** Blinds and button ***
StationMastR (hero) has the button and is dealt Kh9h
HefBundy posts small blind €0.05
Adoo6 posts big blind €0.10

*** Preflop ***
gbhnumzrmz72 folds
QueenOHeart folds
StationMastR (BTN, hero) raises €0.25 to €0.25
HefBundy (SB) raises €0.75 to €0.80
Adoo6 (BB) calls €0.70
StationMastR calls €0.55

*** Flop *** [8d 7s 2s] €2.40 in pot (ignoring rake)
HefBundy bets €0.55
Adoo6 calls €0.55
StationMastR calls €0.55

Villain bets super small on a dry board, even with the call in between I feel like the price is too good to fold with the backdoor draw, position and being 1000 BB deep giving me a chance to make moves later given no-one has shown much strength. Note I am far from an expert at playing this deep!

*** Turn *** [8d 7s 2s] [6c] €4.05 in pot (ignoring rake)
HefBundy bets €0.75
Adoo6 calls €0.75
StationMastR raises €4.10 to €4.10
HefBundy calls €3.35
Adoo6 calls €3.35

A good turn card giving me an OESD, I'm aware not all my outs are clean and I'm not drawing to the nuts, but still a decent turn. When villain bets this small (and the BB just calls again) I'm expecting alot of overcards that have missed, so I felt like it was a good spot to raise and apply pressure. I was very surprised when not just one but both villains called!

*** River *** [8d 7s 2s] [6c] [9d] €16.35 in pot (ignoring rake)
HefBundy checks
Adoo6 checks
StationMastR ???

So the 9d comes on the river giving me top pair and putting a 4 liner to a straight. The flush draw has missed. We are still 950bb deep or so.

What's the play here, do we continue to bluff or do we have enough showdown value here? I found it quite hard to range villains given the passive lines, it didn't seem like overpairs - which would suggest draws, yes the flush missed but they are unlikely to both have that, could someone be overvaluing A8s? I wasn't sure if they would lead straights being this deep or try to get a check raise - certainly a 5 probably just calls, a T probably x-raises? and JT for sure would. In the end I felt I had enough showdown value to check behind and obviously no chance of folding straights - what do you think?

What has caught my attention here is that several players are very deep. The player with less blinds has 500 BB deep and there is one with almost 2000 BB deep. I saw situations like this rarely and got amazed at it.
Preflop fine our hands seem good to call here to see a flop and not so good to 4-bet.
The flop doesn’t come perfect but the price is good and we still have equity to the turn, having a runner-runner straight draw and two overcards.
The turn improved our hand and I’m raising here most of times to try to make at least one of the opponents to fold. If they call we still can think what to do on some rivers.
When both players call we must put them on a range. And here some hands would simply call because it had completed a straight and they don’t want to lose value or make the pot grow by turning value hands into bluffs. SB still has TT+ and AJ+, JT+ etc.
BB can have a bunch of top pairs and two pairs that decided to call. Maybe even sets wouldn’t be raising in this spot.
On the river we must use the power of position and check to realize our equity. Okay, one of them might got there having two overcards that got sticky such as KQ, AJ, but both of them?
If we value for bet we want at least one of them to call with a dominated hand and in this scenario is hard to happen.
If we had missed river we could think about polarizing and bluffing making a big bet. If comes a king instead of a nine we would be checking behind as well.
I think you should remember that hand where you had AJ and completed top two pair OTR and instead of calling you elected to raise, putting yourself in a hard position.
Here follows the same situation: if we bet overcards can simply fold or they can play fancy, raise us and then we will find ourselves in a Hell because SB still has better hands that could’ve played like this and even JT, that all players could be holding.
If we bet two pairs and sets will definitely call. So we check to realize our equity for we have enough showdown value and because it’s hard to get thin value out of two opponents.
No matter the outcome, if we are winning or losing, we take a note on this players (or try to memorize it), and move on!
Nice hand, I think you played the hand just fine.
Could you please explain to us which poker room is this? And if you have any idea why all players are so deep?

Best regards;

 

[Aballinamion]

Remember, we only want to be playing for 1000 bb stack if we truly have the nuts.

I agree with that: as deeper the stack size, heavier our value range. We push our bluff range in situations like this only when we are 99% sure that the opponent is a decent player capable of folding very strong hands such as straights and flushes.

we should be 3xing

Thanks for your attention mate. I think that we shouldn’t change our opening sizings because of stack depth. Hero opens 2.5x IP with its entire range, i.e, hero opens a lot of hands from BU and certainly will fold to some 3-bets: for every fold hero saves 0.5 BB, in the long run makes a lot of difference.
Some players elect to open raise 3x from EP and 2.5x from LP and 3-4x from the blinds (versus one limper). I think it’s okay to do it, but personally I like to open 2.5x from any position.
We make the odds for players in the blinds better, but we open to get calls from the blinds and overplay them.

I’m not any specialist on deep stack poker, but it’s a subject that I give special attention for a couple of years. The reasons is that a few years ago I tilted very bad and stopped playing for months because of a deep stacked pot:
I had AA and 4-bet a tight player IP: it comes a low flop and I make a polarized c-bet (hero and villain had 300 BB each), villain calls. OTT comes a king, I fire once more and villain raised: I knew it could’ve been holding KK but even so I jammed: villain called and showed KK and I went mad 😡
After that I watched a couple of deep stacked pots on Nathan Williams Channel and understood one major thing: players are going deep only with the absolute nuts, no illusions when we have AA, a bottom set, bottom straight, flushes on paired boards that villain is risking +200 BB for fun.
I can’t find the video right now but there was a pot of over 1000 BB where one guy had a quads of jacks and the other went through with a boat losing +500 BB.

 

[Station_Master]

What has caught my attention here is that several players are very deep. The player with less blinds has 500 BB deep and there is one with almost 2000 BB deep. I saw situations like this rarely and got amazed at it.
Preflop fine our hands seem good to call here to see a flop and not so good to 4-bet.
The flop doesn’t come perfect but the price is good and we still have equity to the turn, having a runner-runner straight draw and two overcards.
The turn improved our hand and I’m raising here most of times to try to make at least one of the opponents to fold. If they call we still can think what to do on some rivers.
When both players call we must put them on a range. And here some hands would simply call because it had completed a straight and they don’t want to lose value or make the pot grow by turning value hands into bluffs. SB still has TT+ and AJ+, JT+ etc.
BB can have a bunch of top pairs and two pairs that decided to call. Maybe even sets wouldn’t be raising in this spot.
On the river we must use the power of position and check to realize our equity. Okay, one of them might got there having two overcards that got sticky such as KQ, AJ, but both of them?
If we value for bet we want at least one of them to call with a dominated hand and in this scenario is hard to happen.
If we had missed river we could think about polarizing and bluffing making a big bet. If comes a king instead of a nine we would be checking behind as well.
I think you should remember that hand where you had AJ and completed top two pair OTR and instead of calling you elected to raise, putting yourself in a hard position.
Here follows the same situation: if we bet overcards can simply fold or they can play fancy, raise us and then we will find ourselves in a Hell because SB still has better hands that could’ve played like this and even JT, that all players could be holding.
If we bet two pairs and sets will definitely call. So we check to realize our equity for we have enough showdown value and because it’s hard to get thin value out of two opponents.
No matter the outcome, if we are winning or losing, we take a note on this players (or try to memorize it), and move on!
Nice hand, I think you played the hand just fine.
Could you please explain to us which poker room is this? And if you have any idea why all players are so deep?

Best regards;

This is on unibet, they run special deepstack games on Thursdays. I've only played them a couple of times.

P.S. I would expect 2 pairs (and overpairs) to fold to a (big) river bet, possibly sets too with the 4 liner available. I just wasnt convinced it was a big enough part of their ranges to continue bluffing.

 

[Station_Master]

I suck at these depths so I will put that disclaimer here at the top so everyone is aware.

Pre: I think is fine except that I think even 100 BBs deep at 10NL we should be 3xing so here even deeper with a suited hand I would at least 3x and maybe could make a case for a bigger raise. 2.5x is not terrible by any means but I think 3x is better unless we really know that one of the blinds is a raisy type and we know we are getting 3 bet a lot and will be calling in position to that raise so then 2.5x is cheaper. Then it makes sense to 2.5x but otherwise I like 3x or more.

Flop: I'm sure my lack of skills here will show especially super deep but I am not calling this even with the price. I would have liked at least two backdoors (meaning at least 1 heart) or at least the board to be rainbow even if the heart was the odd man out in the rainbow but here when we call I feel we are too dependent on a 6,10 or K to come as even a 9 still makes us on alert. Then we get that we still need another that avoids a spade so I just fold here. That could be wrong this deep but I think one single backdoor against what we already know is two players is not enough for me since we will be folding so many turns.

Turn: After calling flop and getting one of the cards we need this must be a continue. Then it comes down to call or raise. I understand where you are coming from but I think I would take a relatively cheap card here and just call. We are in this hand because of stack depth so do we expect our opponents to fold to us when they are aware of the depth as well? I think they will look for reasons to continue just as we did and with this being the card under the board I just call. I would like the raise better if it was the 10 vs the 6 since then our draw would be more exclusive and less likely be against a better straight. Remember, we only want to be playing for 1000 bb stack if we truly have the nuts. Even 2nd nuts should be weary of playing for that deep so even though we are that deep I would not be looking every good hand to play for all the chips.

River: To me, easiest check back in the world. Since we raised turn there will be/should be less one pair hands that will call here and all better stuff will fold minus maybe a very slight chance two pair could fold but I doubt that as well. I think if you bet here you might even get check raised as a bluff at times against certain opponents so I think this is a snap check back and take the showdown value of 9x.

Good point about 3x pre, given the positional advantage is greater deeper maybe I can raise larger, though there is still only 1.5BB in the pot to be won.

Note part of the reason for the loose flop call and raise on the turn is the small sizings, they weren't indicative of strength! (Maybe flop is too loose though)

 

[Aballinamion]

Unibet, they run special deepstack games on Thursdays.

Thanks for this information. What’s that suppose to mean, that we enter the table having more than 100 BB? What are the limits to enter these tables?

I would expect 2 pairs (and overpairs) to fold to a (big) river bet, possibly sets too with the 4 liner available

If you consider these players regulars you should definitely give a shot and bluff OTR, although is dangerous we aren’t playing the hand anymore, but the players.

 

[Station_Master]

Thanks for this information. What’s that suppose to mean, that we enter the table having more than 100 BB? What are the limits to enter these tables?

If you consider these players regulars you should definitely give a shot and bluff OTR, although is dangerous we aren’t playing the hand anymore, but the players.

Yes buy-in is 500 - 1000 BB (€50 - €100), they also put a prize on for whoever can make the biggest stack

 

[gustav197poker]

I've never played that deep, but I think it could be very fun.
Preflop I guess it's a standard opening so I have no further observations.
On the flop I think we are a bit behind with our backdoor, I would prefer to have the K of spades at least to set targets for future streets. It seems to me that this texture favors the blind a little more, that's why I wouldn't raise with 2 more players.
On the turn I like your line, as the opponents seem like the type of player that MWBs like, so here we are cashing them in while building a little more equity with our OESD.
River is interesting because we are now blocking 99 which is a low impact hand, as we initially removed the 9T combo from the Vs range a bit, but we don't represent this hand much on the flop either. And the fact that the V's checked is great because it allows us to get to the showdown without risking more money. I would check behind without giving it much thought.
Greetings.

 

[John A]

Vs 1 opponent, I like a 1 1/2 pot sized bet. Vs 2... you'd need to go larger and be successful at a really high rate. The variance for a spot like this is huge, so I wouldn't have even gotten to this point, and would have just folded the flop. I think at these stakes, w/ how much people like to call I'd lean towards just letting it go. But if you did bet, it needs to be 1 1/2+ pot sized.