25nl A4s for top and bottom in big pot

Villain is about 25/12/5 and hasn't stepped out of line too much.

I'm my usual 15/10/5 self. My pf call was definitely debatable (let me know if you disagree w it) but I'm wondering if you guys think it's possible to get away from our hand here postflop.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (7 handed)

CO ($9)
Button ($32.65)
SB ($21.40)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($25)
MP1 ($23.45)
MP2 ($25.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A , 4 .
UTG raises to $1, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.90, Hero calls $0.75.

Flop: ($5) K , 4 , A (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $2.25, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $6, UTG raises to $11, Hero ...

Hero folds rapid fast. What are you beating, does AQ.AJ play this strong ? AA/KK/or AK maybe someone getting cute with a combo draw like J10h.

Your almost drawing dead, the preflop call was fine, but call down light on this board rather than trying to get it in imo.

Unhide yourself from search.

Pre-flop is very meh: fold or 3-bet with fold > 3-bet since villain probably has the goods raising UTG and his stats aren't atrocious.

Since you cold-called preflop, villain could be value raising AQ or AJ here, but this is 44, AA, KK and AK so very much I'm folding. I mean you c/r him and now he min-raised: we're playing for stacks and we don't even have 4 clean outs most of the time.

jeffred1111 said:

Pre-flop is very meh: fold or 3-bet with fold > 3-bet since villain probably has the goods raising UTG and his stats aren't atrocious..

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I understand its playing 7 handed but we simply cant 3-bet A-x profitably here. Certainly not against nl$25 donks. "ME HAVE AK, ME SHOVE"

I we can't 3-bet, we can find a fold then or if we call, we should be suspicious about anything other than flush. Didn't notice that everyone and their dog had called also, wich make my comment ridiculous. Sorry Chuck, but it does illustrates how calling with crap even with good odds, can be giving away reverse implied odds sometimes.

Don't have to be sorry - you're absolutely right and tbh I don't think much else needs to be added to this thread except the (sad) results.

Even with AK/AA/KK running through my mind, my hand still disobeyed me, I shoved into his KK and didn't improve.

ChuckTs said:

Don't have to be sorry - you're absolutely right and tbh I don't think much else needs to be added to this thread except the (sad) results.

Even with AK/AA/KK running through my mind, my hand still disobeyed me, I shoved into his KK and didn't improve.

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^^^^^^^^^ Too Soon chuck, delete this post, just had a major debate on MSN with 4Dogs about this hand, he brought up some good points.

Obviously there's a strong chance your behind, but poker is about EV and odds, not behind or ahead. There's no way you can make any kind of a meaningfull re-raise without being pot committed so, it's shove or fold. There's $24 in the pot and I think you have $18 left? There's some FE there, but not much. If you shove and he calls, you'll be getting almost 2.5:1 odds. Are you so sure his range couldn't include AJ AQ that these odds still aren't favorable? In a tournament I'd most likely fold. In a ring I think the PO's dictate a call even though your most likely behind.

OK TB, let me have it.

ChuckTs said:

Don't have to be sorry - you're absolutely right and tbh I don't think much else needs to be added to this thread except the (sad) results.

Even with AK/AA/KK running through my mind, my hand still disobeyed me, I shoved into his KK and didn't improve.

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Oh.
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..
...
Never mind.

Four Dogs said:

There's some FE there, but not much.

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Why do we want FE? No hands are folding here that have us beat.

Four Dogs said:

Are you so sure his range couldn't include AJ AQ that these odds still aren't favorable?

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Pretty sure. AJ/AQ is probably not 4-betting a check-raise there. Esp not for such a small amount - I think it's possible (maybe a cheap way to find out if TP is good?) but really not very probable.

edit: sorry guys didn't notice tb's reply til now

ChuckTs said:

Why do we want FE? No hands are folding here that have us beat.

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True, but my reasoning wasn't based on FE, it was based more on DE (donk equity). The other day I folded pocket kings on an ace high flop when UTG bet out and MP pushed. Neither had an ace, and neither had better than a pair. Unless you know him, it's hard for me to believe that your hand won't pay off say 1/3 times.

ChuckTs said:

Pretty sure. AJ/AQ is probably not 4-betting a check-raise there.

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And yet, you did exactly what I wrote.

Four Dogs said:

Obviously there's a strong chance your behind, but poker is about EV and odds, not behind or ahead. There's no way you can make any kind of a meaningfull re-raise without being pot committed so, it's shove or fold. There's $24 in the pot and I think you have $18 left? There's some FE there, but not much. If you shove and he calls, you'll be getting almost 2.5:1 odds. Are you so sure his range couldn't include AJ AQ that these odds still aren't favorable? In a tournament I'd most likely fold. In a ring I think the PO's dictate a call even though your most likely behind.

OK TB, let me have it.

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Yea but your making them pot odds for yourself. In a limit game there is an argurment for calling down here, there is also and arguement for calling down light here as well, but giving yourself odds to play for stacks when all the information that youve gained is that your behind is out there.

Pod odds dictate calls lots of the time that I dont make, remember bets saved are bets won as well, and playing for stacks in a no limit ring game is where you make the most important and cruticial decisions, and lots of the time its these decisions that seperate the winning players from losing ones. In a full ring game you can win and lose lots of small pots and even be a loser, however if that small ball loser makes optimal decisions when playing for stacks he can be a long term winner.

Four Dogs said:

True, but my reasoning wasn't based on FE, it was based more on DE (donk equity). The other day I folded pocket kings on an ace high flop when UTG bet out and MP pushed. Neither had an ace, and neither had better than a pair. Unless you know him, it's hard for me to believe that your hand won't pay off say 1/3 times.

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huh? Donk equity? Not sure what you're getting at here FD - the fact that players will often come up with unexpected (and worse than expected) hands?

I think it's exactly the opposite of what you're explaining. I'd need reads to be able to call this - against an unknown we have to assume his range here crushes our top&bottom pairs. I should be making a call here only if I know my opponent is loose enough to include Ax here.

Four Dogs said:

And yet, you did exactly what I wrote.

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Yep. Everybody makes mistakes, and this one cost me a fortune.