Howard Lederer on Full Tilt's RNG

From: "andreas kinell"
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:50:53 +0200
Local: Mon, Apr 18 2005 6:50 am
Subject: Re: RNG's at Full Tilt.


> Interesting transcript from Howard Lederer in a razz S&G with him tonight
> regarding the RNG and card shuffling at Full Tilt. Figured some people
> would be interested in reading...

> Caitlin215 (Observer): i understand that FTP uses
> action cards placed at random intervals to speed
> up play is that true in ring games as well as
> tourneys or are they just used in tourneys
> Howard Lederer: our deal si totally random
> Howard Lederer: action flops would be hard to
> program
> Caitlin215 (Observer): well i had the opportunity to
> meet chris recently and i was talking to him about
> full tilt poker someone over heard and asked him if Full Tilt Poker used
> action cards and he said yes placed at totally
> random intervals but i wasnt sure if he was just
> talking about toruuneys
> esfd283: how would that be possible
> Howard Lederer: you misheard
> Shangri La (Observer): what are action cards?
> Howard Lederer: he wwas either joking
> Caitlin215 (Observer): i guess i did then
> Howard Lederer: or you misheard
> Howard Lederer: the notion of action cards is
> funny to us
> Shangri La (Observer): to Full Tilt Poker?
> Howard Lederer: because we know how hard it
> would be to pull off
> Dakon (Observer): strange thing to joke about
> Howard Lederer: and the risk of discovery would
> be huge
> Howard Lederer: our deal is rnadom on three levels
> Howard Lederer: first we used an audited rng
> Howard Lederer: but we also use a deck queue
> Howard Lederer: basically each deck on the site is
> put in a queue after it is used
> Howard Lederer: then when we need a deck we
> pick one at random
> Howard Lederer: then we run it through the rng
> Howard Lederer: then after each round has been
> dealt
> Howard Lederer: the remaining cards are shuffled
> during the action
> Caitlin215 (Observer): wait the deck that s in play
> is shuffled during the action
> Howard Lederer: there is no way to know what is
> coming because trhe cardes are not set
> Howard Lederer: right cait
> Caitlin215 (Observer): now is that fair to shuffle the
> deck once its in play?
> Howard Lederer: since the deck is not set, you
> can't cheat
> Caitlin215 (Observer): ok thta makes sense
> Howard Lederer: we areonly suffling the cards that
> remain
> Caitlin215 (Observer): but how would u be able to
> cheat unless u found a way to ping the deck off
> the server
> Howard Lederer: if some how you could crack the
> deck, it wouldn't help you at our site
> Howard Lederer: I am not suggesting that it would
> be easy


the good news:
a nice idea to shuffle the deck during play, it makes it way
harder to cheat.
the bad news:
your play may actually change the next card to come.
it doesn't really matter theoretically, but i feel uncomfortable
when i know that, if i had bet one second later, i probably
would not have been outdrawn and stuff like this.
andreas


From: "UKPaul"
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:06:58 +0100
Local: Mon, Apr 18 2005 7:06 am
Subject: Re: RNG's at Full Tilt.

"andreas kinell" wrote in message

> the bad news:
> your play may actually change the next card to come.
> it doesn't really matter theoretically, but i feel uncomfortable
> when i know that, if i had bet one second later, i probably
> would not have been outdrawn and stuff like this.
> andreas


Agreed, but it also means that next time you chuck 72o and the flop is 772
you dont feel quite so bad.

The continuous shuffle is used on most sites, Party is one of the few that doesn't (at least last time I read up).

I like the continuous shuffle because it completely removes any sense of "if only I'd called" when you make a correct fold and the miracle card hits. It makes 0 (zero) difference to how you play the game but does make cheating harder.

Also another reason why people who claim to see patterns in the cards are talking guff.

Just like the guy said next time u fold 7 2 off and the flopp comes 7 2 2 dont feel bad for folding because if u played that actually wouldnt have happened.

I have read the description of the method FT was using earlier this year. Oddly Phil Gordon's description of what he thinks is going on does NOT jibe with what the writen policy was when I read the posted description. Perhaps it has changed.

At that time the description, which is very complicated, said that as each new game is started, a complete deck is added to the pool of decks. And that pool is shuffled. I read it to say that, for example, if there were 1000 games going on, there would be 52,000 cards in the deck. There was some hint that that mega deck was in constant shuffle, and that as a card was needed, one was provided from that mega deck, and the software decided if it was an appropriate card for the table in question. Obviously a 2nd Qh for the table would be returned to that mega deck and another card tested for suitability.

There was some mention of timings made at a quantum level, and a brief explanation of how a typical RNG works, and an equally brief explanation of how that quantum timer worked in conjunction with that RNG.

No algorithm's were provided, nor even any pseudo code. So we must assume someone is on top of this, and it is secret. The general overview was probably sufficiently obscure to confuse all but the most dedicated, knowledgeable hacker. So Jane Doe probably won't be a problem, but Jon Ho might.

As we can imagine, the methodologies used for detailing the shuffle and deal should be as random as possible. It could easily be shown that online shuffles and deals are probably more random than live shuffles and deals.

I am reminded of an article about Chris Ferguson showing that if you get a perfect shuffle 8 times in a row, you end up with a perfectly ordered deck, as if it just got unwrapped.

All of this leaves us at a peculiar point. We must realize that we are at the mercy of the poker sites, that we must trust them, and someone needs to be responsible for insuring we all get as perfect a chance at a truly random shuffle as is humanly, or logically possible.

I for one, make the assumption that the sites have too much to lose to allow any shenanigans to mess with their shuffles and deals.

yes if you didn't have this feature and could hack the system (know what the next card was since it wasn't being shuffled constantly) that would be a disaster for honest players like you and me

Irexes said:

Also another reason why people who claim to see patterns in the cards are talking guff.

Click to expand...

As for this guff! Ha!

There can be no such thing as randomness. Even in the big bang theory, random was not perfect, came close, but not perfect. Those imperfections lead over time to the formation of clumps, systems of clumps, and galaxies.

If there is no variation of randomness (patterns) then there will only and always be only one play in poker. Determine the average winning hand, which I figure to be a pair of 9's or tens, and play any hand better than that, or that has the potential to be better than that.

Actually I figure the average winning hand is about a pair and a half, which does not equate to 3 of a kind.

You should trust me, I am the resident, self appointed flopologist!

Do u know that u can buy a rng machine and possibly(if your smart) hack into the system and get a quite acurate geuss on the next card coming up and the players whole cards. This came from WWW.POKEREAGLES.COM everything on rngs is pretty much there.


What is Poker RNG?(Priced at $457)

Poker RNG is a softwares that claim that it can figure the RNG formula of poker websites out. Therefore it can predict the community cards, the dominant suit on the flop, and hole cards of two other players at the table.
The way it works is that you punch in your Hole Cards and the Community Cards in the software (A screen shot of the actual software is shown below). Then based on it's database (which has been built by you) it will predict the flop, dominant suit on the flop and hole cards of two players at the table with an accuracy of 99.9%.

I CANT STOP THINKING ABOUT IT

My post eariler talks about how full tilt shuffles there deck and now i cant stop thinking about it. It might possibly be affecting my play, but i dont know for the better or for the worse. I know every second i take longer changes the outcome of my cards. I feel as if at my table i know a secret on how the cards come up and i sometimes hesistate just hoping that i changed the outcome of the cards in my favor. ANYWAY I CAN STOP THINKING ABOUT THIS!

Just keep thinking, "There's no place like home. There's no place like home." and hit the "all in" button.

It passes with time Phil. After I read what I read, I too suffered that same symptom.

FWIW, PS said, at that time, that they were using the same method.

Yes, delaying your decision does change the cards, but the delay is on a quantum time scale, and what will that delay change your card to ?

Doesn't matter. We are not hardwired well enough to manipulate something we can't even calculate.

I guess this would kill my Rabbit Hunt Thread, being they change every mili-second on some sites. (In a casino it would still be a question though ) .

Does anyone know if bodog does this? I don't know if I would like playing if my thinking about bet/raise/check changes the cards. Obviously if I fold I could care less

So on Full Tilt you're pretty much playing a Hold Em' slot machine?

That's a scam, RNGs (good ones at least) cannot be cracked any better than roulette wheels can (there was a thread about this). Randomness does not depend on previous events. If this worked, everyone would buy it, even if it costs almost $500. Poker sites use items such as machine entropy and client activity. The theory of getting enough data may work for a pseudo-random number generator (and they're all technically pseudo-random, but you can get more random than most arithmetic means that several random functions use), but no program using the theory it claims to can crack an RNG on the order that most poker sites use. If it has a crap RNG on the other hand... look at this site: How We Learned to Cheat at Online Poker: A Study in Software Security

I've played live tables where if it were online, I'd be convinced it was set up...

well thats nice to know they shuffle the cards during play to make it harder to cheat, but sounds weird that ur play changes how the cards come out? if thats so, i think thats laaaaaaaaaaaame!

dj11 said:

There can be no such thing as randomness. Even in the big bang theory, random was not perfect, came close, but not perfect. Those imperfections lead over time to the formation of clumps, systems of clumps, and galaxies.

Click to expand...

I think that you, like most people, confuse randomness with evenness. Random implies a certain lever of "clumpting." A perfectly even outtcome is not random, but must be programmed.

Shown a random arrangement of numbers (or dots) and a "manufactured" list made to look random, most people would pick the wrong list as random.

It's the way our brains work. We did not evolve to understand random.

-Phil Ivey27 said:

Do u know that u can buy a rng machine and possibly(if your smart) hack into the system and get a quite acurate geuss on the next card coming up and the players whole cards. This came from WWW.POKEREAGLES.COM everything on rngs is pretty much there.


What is Poker RNG?(Priced at $457)

Poker RNG is a softwares that claim that it can figure the RNG formula of poker websites out. Therefore it can predict the community cards, the dominant suit on the flop, and hole cards of two other players at the table.
The way it works is that you punch in your Hole Cards and the Community Cards in the software (A screen shot of the actual software is shown below). Then based on it's database (which has been built by you) it will predict the flop, dominant suit on the flop and hole cards of two players at the table with an accuracy of 99.9%.

Click to expand...

I am the owner of Poker Eagles I was checking my website stats and saw some link backs from this page....

I just thought I need to point out here that I DO NOT in any way support RNG. I did test their software, and as I say in my review I don't think it works...

I don't know why people keep posting my review as an approval to the software. That paragraph that i quoted from my website is what I quoted from RNG website as what they claim their software does....

-Phil Ivey27 said:

My post eariler talks about how full tilt shuffles there deck and now i cant stop thinking about it. It might possibly be affecting my play, but i dont know for the better or for the worse. I know every second i take longer changes the outcome of my cards. I feel as if at my table i know a secret on how the cards come up and i sometimes hesistate just hoping that i changed the outcome of the cards in my favor. ANYWAY I CAN STOP THINKING ABOUT THIS!

Click to expand...

I think that the best way to think about it is to go on as if the cards are going to come up the same no matter what. This might not be the actual case, but just make that assumption and play by the odds. Just think that the deck IS in a sequential order and go off that.